From dave at triffid.co.uk Mon Jul 2 17:46:26 2018 From: dave at triffid.co.uk (Dave Symes) Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2018 17:46:26 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Boot problem In-Reply-To: <5710543d34cvjazz@waitrose.com> References: <570f6dd94acvjazz@waitrose.com> <20180628215623.C36B421D7A@outbound-queue-adx-1.mail.thdo.gradwell.net> <5710543d34cvjazz@waitrose.com> Message-ID: <5711635a57dave@triffid.co.uk> In article <5710543d34cvjazz at waitrose.com>, Chris Newman via Virtualacorn-list wrote: [Snippy] > It took a while to get A Round Tuiit as I have been taking advantage of > the hot weather & doing some repairs to our ancient conservatory wood > work. Dig out a bit, fill a bit, paint a bit. Then there's the ages you > have to wait for things to set & dry. What fun. I had to replace some > ancient hinges. The originals were packed out with pieces cut from a > Wills Woodbine fag packet (anyone remember them). Chiselit, Bodgit & > Leggit had obviously cut the holes too big. Modern hinges are slightly > bigger than the originals & the screw holes don't line up. More filling > & sanding. Hey ho! Reading the above I have to asume you are a mere DIYer!... Dave -- Dave Triffid From cvjazz at waitrose.com Mon Jul 2 22:02:05 2018 From: cvjazz at waitrose.com (Chris Newman) Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2018 22:02:05 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Boot problem In-Reply-To: <5711635a57dave@triffid.co.uk> References: <570f6dd94acvjazz@waitrose.com> <20180628215623.C36B421D7A@outbound-queue-adx-1.mail.thdo.gradwell.net> <5710543d34cvjazz@waitrose.com> <5711635a57dave@triffid.co.uk> Message-ID: <57117ac18dcvjazz@waitrose.com> In article <5711635a57dave at triffid.co.uk>, Dave Symes via Virtualacorn-list wrote: > In article <5710543d34cvjazz at waitrose.com>, > Chris Newman via Virtualacorn-list > wrote: > [Snippy] > > It took a while to get A Round Tuiit as I have been taking advantage of > > the hot weather & doing some repairs to our ancient conservatory wood > > work. Dig out a bit, fill a bit, paint a bit. Then there's the ages you > > have to wait for things to set & dry. What fun. I had to replace some > > ancient hinges. The originals were packed out with pieces cut from a > > Wills Woodbine fag packet (anyone remember them). Chiselit, Bodgit & > > Leggit had obviously cut the holes too big. Modern hinges are slightly > > bigger than the originals & the screw holes don't line up. More filling > > & sanding. Hey ho! > Reading the above I have to asume you are a mere DIYer!... Mere being the operative word, methinks. -- Chris From dave at triffid.co.uk Tue Jul 3 07:54:55 2018 From: dave at triffid.co.uk (Dave Symes) Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2018 07:54:55 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Boot problem In-Reply-To: <57117ac18dcvjazz@waitrose.com> References: <570f6dd94acvjazz@waitrose.com> <20180628215623.C36B421D7A@outbound-queue-adx-1.mail.thdo.gradwell.net> <5710543d34cvjazz@waitrose.com> <5711635a57dave@triffid.co.uk> <57117ac18dcvjazz@waitrose.com> Message-ID: <5711b108a1dave@triffid.co.uk> In article <57117ac18dcvjazz at waitrose.com>, Chris Newman via Virtualacorn-list wrote: > In article <5711635a57dave at triffid.co.uk>, > Dave Symes via Virtualacorn-list > wrote: > > In article <5710543d34cvjazz at waitrose.com>, > > Chris Newman via Virtualacorn-list > > wrote: > > [Snippy] > > > It took a while to get A Round Tuiit as I have been taking advantage > > > of the hot weather & doing some repairs to our ancient conservatory > > > wood work. Dig out a bit, fill a bit, paint a bit. Then there's the > > > ages you have to wait for things to set & dry. What fun. I had to > > > replace some ancient hinges. The originals were packed out with > > > pieces cut from a Wills Woodbine fag packet (anyone remember them). > > > Chiselit, Bodgit & Leggit had obviously cut the holes too big. > > > Modern hinges are slightly bigger than the originals & the screw > > > holes don't line up. More filling & sanding. Hey ho! > > Reading the above I have to asume you are a mere DIYer!... > Mere being the operative word, methinks. > Chris ;-) Small apology, didn't intend it to appear so pejorative... (Maybe) ;-) Having been a Building construction and maintenance pro for over 50 years, and 'wunce' upon a time the Grumpmaster, I sometimes still bristle at DIYer comments. :-) (My bad). Dave FWIW. Back in the days, an old fag packet whatever brand was a most useful thing to have in your tool box. 1) To contain the fags, then when empty... 2) To use for hinge and lock shims, etc. 3) To write material(x) lists and dims on. 4) If the fags packet had a loose foil liner... And... If some careless (person) blew a fuse (No one carried spares) the foil liner could be rolled around the blown fuse cartridge and put in to temporarily replace the fuse... Or twist rolled to put in a fuse box. Yes I know, but I'm commenting on long ago... Later when I ran my own business I did carry a pot of spare fuses and fuse wires. (x) That's material in the sense of timber, cement, ironmongery etc, and not a bolt of cloth. :-) Oh yes, and even back then we had boot problems. D. -- Dave Triffid From atdotcodotuk at dotcodotukat.co.uk Tue Jul 3 10:16:21 2018 From: atdotcodotuk at dotcodotukat.co.uk (Vince M Hudd) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2018 10:16:21 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients Message-ID: I've just spotted and approved a couple of messages that were held for moderation by the mailing list server. Both were dated 28th June, so they've been waiting around five days for me to notice. The reason they were held is because the system is set up to not allow messages with multiple recipients (so more than one address in the 'To' line, or a combination of 'To' and 'CC') Please try to avoid doing this. If you really must send your message to the list and somewhere else, use BCC for the other address(es). -- Vince M Hudd - Soft Rock Software - www.softrock.co.uk RISCOSitory - www.riscository.com From pnyoung at ormail.co.uk Tue Jul 3 10:51:39 2018 From: pnyoung at ormail.co.uk (Peter Young) Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2018 10:51:39 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 3 Jul 2018 Vince M Hudd via Virtualacorn-list wrote: > I've just spotted and approved a couple of messages that were held for > moderation by the mailing list server. Both were dated 28th June, so > they've been waiting around five days for me to notice. > The reason they were held is because the system is set up to not allow > messages with multiple recipients (so more than one address in the 'To' > line, or a combination of 'To' and 'CC') > Please try to avoid doing this. If you really must send your message to > the list and somewhere else, use BCC for the other address(es). Or use ImpEmail to compose a MailMerge message. http://sinenomine.co.uk/software/ bcc is OK up to a point. However, I send emails to 45 members of a walking group. If I use bcc to do this I find that all messages sent to gmail users bounce. Presumably, if the words "think" and "gmail" go in the same sentence, gmail thinks that anything sent to so many recipients must be spam. ImpEmail, however, produces 45 separate emails. Best wishes, Peter. -- Peter Young (zfc Pt) and family Prestbury, Cheltenham, Glos. GL52, England http://pnyoung.orpheusweb.co.uk pnyoung at ormail.co.uk From atdotcodotuk at dotcodotukat.co.uk Tue Jul 3 11:28:40 2018 From: atdotcodotuk at dotcodotukat.co.uk (Vince M Hudd) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2018 11:28:40 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4317d660-3335-d75c-984a-e88cbd452c71@dotcodotukat.co.uk> On 03/07/18 10:51, Peter Young via Virtualacorn-list wrote: >> Please try to avoid doing this. If you really must send your message to >> the list and somewhere else, use BCC for the other address(es). > Or use ImpEmail to compose a MailMerge message. > http://sinenomine.co.uk/software/ > bcc is OK up to a point. However, I send emails to 45 members of a walking > group. [snip problem doing that and ImpEmail as the solution] That's a slightly different issue, though - ImpEmail is for sending messages to a set of addresses in a database; it's a one-way thing. I'm talking about people replying to messages on this *discussion* list and including another address on the reply. -- Vince M Hudd - Soft Rock Software - www.softrock.co.uk RISCOSitory - www.riscository.com From vatory at abbeypress.co.uk Tue Jul 3 14:19:49 2018 From: vatory at abbeypress.co.uk (Jim Nagel) Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2018 14:19:49 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Vince M Hudd via Virtualacorn-list wrote on 3 Jul: > ... the system is set up to not allow messages with multiple > recipients (so more than one address in the 'To' line, or a > combination of 'To' and 'CC') > Please try to avoid doing this. If you really must send your message to > the list and somewhere else, use BCC for the other address(es). In MPro, one of the options when reading a mailinglist message is to "reply to group and include copy to sender" (Ctrl-click on the button). The result is TO the list and CC the individual. Would it be easy to set up the Riscository system to disallow messages with *more than 2* addresses total in TO and CC? -- Jim Nagel www.archivemag.co.uk From bbailey at argonet.co.uk Tue Jul 3 18:01:16 2018 From: bbailey at argonet.co.uk (Brian) Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2018 18:01:16 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] VRPC on Linux Message-ID: <5711e88bf4bbailey@argonet.co.uk> Could some kind soul bring me up to date re VRPC on Linux. Pros and cons - perhaps. Presently running VRPC RISCOS 4.02 on Win 7, mostly very satisfied, but wish to be forearmed re possible eventuality of being forced onto Win 10, sometime. Brian From druck at druck.org.uk Tue Jul 3 20:33:29 2018 From: druck at druck.org.uk (David J. Ruck) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2018 20:33:29 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] VRPC on Linux In-Reply-To: <5711e88bf4bbailey@argonet.co.uk> References: <5711e88bf4bbailey@argonet.co.uk> Message-ID: On 03/07/2018 18:01, Brian via Virtualacorn-list wrote: > Could some kind soul bring me up to date re VRPC on Linux. Pros and cons - > perhaps. VRPC isn't available for Linux, try asking about RPCemu on the newsgroups. ---druck -- Email: druck at druck.org.uk Phone: +44-(0)7974 108301 From atdotcodotuk at dotcodotukat.co.uk Wed Jul 4 09:10:33 2018 From: atdotcodotuk at dotcodotukat.co.uk (Vince M Hudd) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2018 09:10:33 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <94a09475-d3e1-def0-1459-6e422f287395@dotcodotukat.co.uk> On 03/07/18 14:19, Jim Nagel via Virtualacorn-list wrote: > Vince M Hudd via Virtualacorn-list wrote on 3 Jul: >> ... the system is set up to not allow messages with multiple >> recipients > In MPro, one of the options when reading a mailinglist message is to > "reply to group and include copy to sender" (Ctrl-click on the > button). The result is TO the list and CC the individual. What a strange option. What good reason is there to - in effect - send someone two copies of your reply? > Would it be easy to set up the Riscository system to disallow messages > with *more than 2* addresses total in TO and CC? Without checking, yes, I believe I can set a threshold number. I'm not convinced I should, though. I think it might be better if Messenger Pro was fixed so that it didn't have such a rude* button, unless I can be convinced it is a sensible option, and that increasing the list threshold is equally sensible. * Speaking as a subscriber to the mailing list, I would consider it rude of someone to send me a second copy of a reply I'm going to receive anyway. -- Vince M Hudd - Soft Rock Software - www.softrock.co.uk RISCOSitory - www.riscository.com From j.mccartney at blueyonder.co.uk Wed Jul 4 10:34:51 2018 From: j.mccartney at blueyonder.co.uk (John McCartney) Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2018 10:34:51 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5712438220j.mccartney@blueyonder.co.uk> In article , Vince M Hudd via Virtualacorn-list wrote: > I've just spotted and approved a couple of messages that > were held for moderation by the mailing list server. > Both were dated 28th June, so they've been waiting > around five days for me to notice. My reply was thus affected. However, Chris saw my reply straight away but I didn't see it until yesterday. John -- John McCartney j.mccartney at blueyonder.co.uk From jn.ml.vac.83 at wingsandbeaks.org.uk Wed Jul 4 10:39:28 2018 From: jn.ml.vac.83 at wingsandbeaks.org.uk (Jeremy Nicoll - ml VA) Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2018 10:39:28 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients In-Reply-To: <94a09475-d3e1-def0-1459-6e422f287395@dotcodotukat.co.uk> References: <94a09475-d3e1-def0-1459-6e422f287395@dotcodotukat.co.uk> Message-ID: <7d9830f569bd92f07fa0da8d6a2b2118@wingsandbeaks.org.uk> On 2018-07-04 09:10, Vince M Hudd via Virtualacorn-list wrote: > On 03/07/18 14:19, Jim Nagel via Virtualacorn-list wrote: >> Vince M Hudd via Virtualacorn-list wrote on 3 Jul: > >>> ... the system is set up to not allow messages with multiple >>> recipients > >> In MPro, one of the options when reading a mailinglist message is to >> "reply to group and include copy to sender" (Ctrl-click on the >> button). The result is TO the list and CC the individual. > > What a strange option. What good reason is there to - in effect - send > someone two copies of your reply? It's a good question, and personally I agree with you(*). But your email to this list, which I'm replying to, has 'too many' headers: From Vince via VA list Sender VA list To VA list Copy Vince Reply-To VA list and in the webamil system I'm using now, 'Reply' and 'Reply All' buttons are available, with different effects - Reply is back to the list and ReplyAll is list and you. You can see how many users would think ReplyAll made sense. * some email systems won't in fact deliver two copies - they de-dup on the mail provider's server if both copies would have ended up in the same 'mailbox' (that being a concept whose implementation varies between systems, I've found). So if someone sends me a private copy of the reply to a list mail quite I often I only receive that and not the public copy as well and that means that because of no list-server-type headers in the private copy, it's not filtered properly when it arrives here. The de-dup logic happens if for example I have what the mail provider regards as aliases and eg a personal email address me at mydomain and a list address mylistsubs at mydomain are both routed to a server mailbox eg mybigmailbox at mydomain and it's that mailbox I collect mail from. It also means that if one has two family members both subscribed to a single mail list, but their mails handled via provider aliases and routed to a single family mailbox, only one person will ever see each message. -- Jeremy Nicoll - my opinions are my own From atdotcodotuk at dotcodotukat.co.uk Wed Jul 4 14:15:41 2018 From: atdotcodotuk at dotcodotukat.co.uk (Vince M Hudd) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2018 14:15:41 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients In-Reply-To: <7d9830f569bd92f07fa0da8d6a2b2118@wingsandbeaks.org.uk> References: <94a09475-d3e1-def0-1459-6e422f287395@dotcodotukat.co.uk> <7d9830f569bd92f07fa0da8d6a2b2118@wingsandbeaks.org.uk> Message-ID: <624ee5b0-a288-0708-ac23-465528324bbd@dotcodotukat.co.uk> On 04/07/2018 10:39, Jeremy Nicoll - ml VA via Virtualacorn-list wrote: > On 2018-07-04 09:10, Vince M Hudd via Virtualacorn-list wrote: >> On 03/07/18 14:19, Jim Nagel via Virtualacorn-list wrote: [The list holds messages with >1 recipient for moderation] [Various snips] >>> In MPro, one of the options when reading a mailinglist message is to >>> "reply to group and include copy to sender" (Ctrl-click on the >>> button).? The result is TO the list and CC the individual. When I read that quickly earlier and replied, I didn't spot the need to ctrl-click the button; I read it as having a separate button to do it. But the need to ctrl-click means that while Messenger Pro has this - to me odd - option, it does require extra effort on the part of the sender to use it. (It appears Thunderbird also has this option, via a drop down menu on the 'Reply List' button - which also requires extra effort to use.) So the obvious solution is for people not to put in that extra effort, and just use the mailing list properly. 8) >> What a strange option. What good reason is there to - in effect - send >> someone two copies of your reply? > It's a good question, and personally I agree with you(*). > But your email to this list, which I'm replying to, has 'too many' > headers: > ? From?????? Vince via VA list > ? Sender???? VA list > ? To???????? VA list > ? Copy?????? Vince > ? Reply-To?? VA list Without spending time looking into what Mailman does, and instead going from memory for some things and guessing for others: From is "munged" to show the list address with the sender's name so that the from being the original sender's address doesn't upset some mail servers. This is the main DMARC solution. Sender could be removed, but the recommended setting is to include it. I think it essentially overwrites any existing sender in the message (if there is one) so that any bounces come to the list server instead of the original sender. I don't think there's a setting for the To line. The CC, I'm *guessing*, is used as a way to include the actual sender's address in the headers in such a way that it would be useful. For example if you specifically wanted to send me an off-list reply. The Reply-To I could change - IIRC the current setting isn't the recommended one, but I set it like that deliberately. Originally this was for old software like ArgoNET's PostyUser, which has no understanding of mailing lists - and I later discovered that Outlook Express also needed the same setting when investigating a problem someone had reported. Thinking about it, the change for DMARC - which basically puts the list address in the From line - should mean the Reply-To setting can be changed to what it should be, so I'll go through all the RISCOSitory lists and make that change. (I have to log in to this list specifically to send my own messages[1] so I'll change this list straight away. The others I'll do tonight.) [1] I put myself on moderation a while back because a spammer hit on the successful trick of spamming one of the mailing lists with my address in the From line. (I think it was this list, actually.) > * some email systems won't in fact deliver two copies - they de-dup > ? on the mail provider's server if both copies would have ended up > ? in the same 'mailbox' (that being a concept whose implementation > ? varies between systems, I've found). Some email clients have a similar setting. So if a copy is CC'd to the previous poster: * They'll see two copies if their server/client doesn't have the option - which I'd find annoying. * They won't if their server/client does have that option - which means sending the two copies is a pointless thing to do anyway! -- Vince M Hudd Soft Rock Software - www.softrock.co.uk RISCOSitory - www.riscository.com From atdotcodotuk at dotcodotukat.co.uk Wed Jul 4 14:25:37 2018 From: atdotcodotuk at dotcodotukat.co.uk (Vince M Hudd) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2018 14:25:37 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients In-Reply-To: <5712438220j.mccartney@blueyonder.co.uk> References: <5712438220j.mccartney@blueyonder.co.uk> Message-ID: On 04/07/2018 10:34, John McCartney via Virtualacorn-list wrote: > Vince M Hudd via Virtualacorn-list > wrote: >> I've just spotted and approved a couple of messages that >> were held for moderation by the mailing list server. >> Both were dated 28th June, so they've been waiting >> around five days for me to notice. > My reply was thus affected. However, Chris saw my reply > straight away but I didn't see it until yesterday. Yes - that's because the CC doesn't go via the mailing list; that's an email being sent straight from you to the recipient. Had you not done that, the list server would have just passed your message on to the list normally, and you would *both* have seen your reply straight away. (Ish, subject to when/how you fetch mail, etc). -- Vince M Hudd Soft Rock Software - www.softrock.co.uk RISCOSitory - www.riscository.com From atdotcodotuk at dotcodotukat.co.uk Wed Jul 4 14:38:41 2018 From: atdotcodotuk at dotcodotukat.co.uk (Vince M Hudd) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2018 14:38:41 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients In-Reply-To: <624ee5b0-a288-0708-ac23-465528324bbd@dotcodotukat.co.uk> References: <94a09475-d3e1-def0-1459-6e422f287395@dotcodotukat.co.uk> <7d9830f569bd92f07fa0da8d6a2b2118@wingsandbeaks.org.uk> <624ee5b0-a288-0708-ac23-465528324bbd@dotcodotukat.co.uk> Message-ID: <066fd8cb-e2ff-ce52-d17f-2488f04bb362@dotcodotukat.co.uk> On 04/07/2018 14:15, Vince M Hudd via Virtualacorn-list wrote: > The CC, I'm *guessing*, is used as a way to include the actual sender's > address in the headers in such a way that it would be useful. For > example if you specifically wanted to send me an off-list reply. > The Reply-To I could change [...] The default/recommended setting is for it to be set to Poster; now the Reply-to line contains the original poster's email address, and the CC line is no longer present. This is consistent with my guess about that line. I note that going to the extra effort in Thunderbird to "Reply All" no longer adds a CC line - it was replying to all the recipients of the original message, and I wonder if Messenger Pro will behave similarly? If so, the option makes sense now - the inclusion of the CC in the headers (a side effect of the Reply-To setting, which as I said was to be helpful to software from the Dark Ages) was confusing the issue. -- Vince M Hudd Soft Rock Software - www.softrock.co.uk RISCOSitory - www.riscository.com From j.mccartney at blueyonder.co.uk Wed Jul 4 20:08:34 2018 From: j.mccartney at blueyonder.co.uk (John McCartney) Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2018 20:08:34 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients In-Reply-To: References: <5712438220j.mccartney@blueyonder.co.uk> Message-ID: <57127809e3j.mccartney@blueyonder.co.uk> In article , Vince M Hudd via Virtualacorn-list wrote: > > My reply was thus affected. However, Chris saw my reply > > straight away but I didn't see it until yesterday. > Yes - that's because the CC doesn't go via the mailing > list; that's an email being sent straight from you to > the recipient. > Had you not done that, the list server would have just > passed your message on to the list normally, and you > would *both* have seen your reply straight away. (Ish, > subject to when/how you fetch mail, etc). Obvious when it's explained. Thanks Vince, John -- John McCartney j.mccartney at blueyonder.co.uk From vatory at abbeypress.co.uk Wed Jul 11 16:03:07 2018 From: vatory at abbeypress.co.uk (Jim Nagel) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2018 16:03:07 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients In-Reply-To: <624ee5b0-a288-0708-ac23-465528324bbd@dotcodotukat.co.uk> References: <94a09475-d3e1-def0-1459-6e422f287395@dotcodotukat.co.uk> <7d9830f569bd92f07fa0da8d6a2b2118@wingsandbeaks.org.uk> <624ee5b0-a288-0708-ac23-465528324bbd@dotcodotukat.co.uk> Message-ID: Vince M Hudd via Virtualacorn-list wrote on 4 Jul: > On 04/07/2018 10:39, Jeremy Nicoll - ml VA via Virtualacorn-list wrote: >> On 2018-07-04 09:10, Vince M Hudd via Virtualacorn-list wrote: >>> On 03/07/18 14:19, Jim Nagel via Virtualacorn-list wrote: > [Various snips] >>>> In MPro, one of the options when reading a mailinglist message is to >>>> "reply to group and include copy to sender" (Ctrl-click on the >>>> button).? The result is TO the list and CC the individual. ... >>> What a strange option. What good reason is there to - in effect - send >>> someone two copies of your reply? >> It's a good question, and personally I agree with you(*). The only situation where I have ever used MPro's ctrl-Reply option is where I know the list moderator* sends stuff only once a day or at even longer intervals but the OP needs a reply quickly. (* not this list, of course!) Maybe it'd be better if the email client sent the copy as BCC rather than CC, but that's outside Vince's ctrl. It might in fact be an advantage in that the individual's address would not be broadcast with potential for spambots to see it. -- Jim Nagel www.archivemag.co.uk From ardler at argonet.co.uk Thu Jul 12 10:28:15 2018 From: ardler at argonet.co.uk (Bob Ardler) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2018 10:28:15 +0100 (BST) Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients Message-ID: <49458.91.85.218.30.1531387695.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> Jim Nagel, Vince M Hudd and others wrote: [...] MPro [...] What is MPro? (Those of us foolish enough to gain an Msc in CompSci in 1972 know less about computing than today's average 6-year-old. And what is the technical term for the progressive outofdatery equivalent to built-in obsolescence?) Bob From p.sprangers at sprie.nl Thu Jul 12 11:09:59 2018 From: p.sprangers at sprie.nl (Paul Sprangers) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2018 12:09:59 +0200 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients In-Reply-To: <49458.91.85.218.30.1531387695.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> References: <49458.91.85.218.30.1531387695.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> Message-ID: <9f55d50b-8c51-ea56-eda4-14be0e31aaf0@sprie.nl> > Those of us foolish enough to gain an Msc in CompSci in 1972 know less > about computing than today's average 6-year-old I don't know how foolish a Msc in CompSci in 1972 is, but I think that the computing skills of 6-year-olds is largely overestimated. Yes, they know exactly which buttons need to be pressed to make their favourite game appear, but I wonder if that should be entitled as 'computer skill'. Even most of the *16*-year-olds, who spend more time on their phones (and computers) than me in my lifetime, are completely helpless if something goes wrong. But I digress... Kind regards, Paul Sprangers From vatory at abbeypress.co.uk Thu Jul 12 12:19:57 2018 From: vatory at abbeypress.co.uk (Jim Nagel) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2018 12:19:57 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients In-Reply-To: <49458.91.85.218.30.1531387695.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> References: <49458.91.85.218.30.1531387695.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> Message-ID: <66d26b1657.jim@6.abbeypress.net> Bob Ardler via Virtualacorn-list wrote on 12 Jul: > Jim Nagel, Vince M Hudd and others wrote: >> [...] MPro [...] > What is MPro? Sorry: it's one of my own pet peeves that people write abbreviations at first mention, forgetting that some not-yet-familiar readers might appreciate a spelling-out. MPro is Messenger Pro, the email and news client application sold by R-Comp. I think there's a version for Windows too (someone will correct me if I'm wrong). The older version was called Messenger. The original authors are Mark Sawle and Tom Hughes. The other main news and email client app for RiscOS is Pluto. -- Jim Nagel www.archivemag.co.uk From j.mccartney at blueyonder.co.uk Thu Jul 12 15:55:03 2018 From: j.mccartney at blueyonder.co.uk (John McCartney) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2018 15:55:03 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients In-Reply-To: <66d26b1657.jim@6.abbeypress.net> References: <49458.91.85.218.30.1531387695.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <66d26b1657.jim@6.abbeypress.net> Message-ID: <57167f8409j.mccartney@blueyonder.co.uk> In article <66d26b1657.jim at 6.abbeypress.net>, Jim Nagel via Virtualacorn-list wrote: > Bob Ardler via Virtualacorn-list wrote on 12 Jul: > > Jim Nagel, Vince M Hudd and others wrote: > >> [...] MPro [...] > > What is MPro? > Sorry: it's one of my own pet peeves that people write > abbreviations at first mention, forgetting that some > not-yet-familiar readers might appreciate a spelling-out. This is exactly what is done (in what used to be called) Service Writing (SW). SW is the way written communications are made (or should be made) in the armed forces and civil service. When I was in the RAF, all that one needed to know about SW was contained in a Joint Service Publication (JSP) entitled JSP 101. Things move on and the topic is now known as Defence Writing. Note that, having mentioned it in full, I haven't put its abbreviation in parentheses. This is because I'm not going to mention it again and the abbreviation would be redundant. John -- John McCartney j.mccartney at blueyonder.co.uk From ardler at argonet.co.uk Fri Jul 13 09:57:36 2018 From: ardler at argonet.co.uk (Bob Ardler) Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2018 09:57:36 +0100 (BST) Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients In-Reply-To: <66d26b1657.jim@6.abbeypress.net> References: <49458.91.85.218.30.1531387695.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <66d26b1657.jim@6.abbeypress.net> Message-ID: <62160.91.85.218.30.1531472256.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> Jim Nagel wrote: re: >> What is MPro? > [...] > MPro is Messenger Pro, the email and news client application sold by R-Comp. I think there's a version for Windows too (someone will correct me if I'm wrong). Ah, bell should have rung. > The older version was called Messenger. The original authors are Mark Sawle and Tom Hughes. > The other main news and email client app for RiscOS is Pluto. Plot thickens. !NetFetch and !Messenger sit where Andrew's team put them on the pinboard, but to email we just NetSurf webmail, log in & do it all on Netsurf. (NetFetch pops up on entering RiscOS from Windows, offering stuff which would require study to use.) One misses Pluto's style and versatility, but learning how to use it with webmail seems too much bother. As to multiple recipients, our local environment discussion group with 32ish members put 32ish addressees in Cc, not Bcc. Most of them also quote in full (including each Cc) every previous message on the topic. Could be that this apparent goofitude is caused by people using smart phones on the move being unable to do the fiddly bits. Could the messages Vince spotted have come from phones? -- Bob From j.mccartney at blueyonder.co.uk Fri Jul 13 11:36:42 2018 From: j.mccartney at blueyonder.co.uk (John McCartney) Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2018 11:36:42 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients In-Reply-To: <62160.91.85.218.30.1531472256.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> References: <49458.91.85.218.30.1531387695.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <66d26b1657.jim@6.abbeypress.net> <62160.91.85.218.30.1531472256.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> Message-ID: <5716ebb2d5j.mccartney@blueyonder.co.uk> In article <62160.91.85.218.30.1531472256.squirrel at email.orpheusnet.co.uk>, Bob Ardler via Virtualacorn-list wrote: > Jim Nagel wrote: > re: > >> What is MPro? > > [...] > > MPro is Messenger Pro, the email and news client > > application sold by > R-Comp. I think there's a version for Windows too > (someone will correct me if I'm wrong). > Ah, bell should have rung. > > The older version was called Messenger. The original > > authors are Mark Sawle and Tom Hughes. > > The other main news and email client app for RiscOS is > > Pluto. > Plot thickens. !NetFetch and !Messenger sit where > Andrew's team put them on the pinboard, but to email we > just NetSurf webmail, log in & do it all on Netsurf. That'll be why your e-mails look a mess when viewed (in my case) on Pluto. The threading is broken and quoting is discontinuous. In order to compose this reply, I've had to extensively edit your last email to make it more easily readable. > (NetFetch pops up on entering RiscOS from Windows, > offering stuff which would require study to use.) One > misses Pluto's style and versatility, but learning how to > use it with webmail seems too much bother. > As to multiple recipients, our local environment > discussion group with 32ish members put 32ish addressees > in Cc, not Bcc. Most of them also quote in full > (including each Cc) every previous message on the topic. > Could be that this apparent goofitude is caused by people > using smart phones on the move being unable to do the > fiddly bits. Your use of NetSurf and webmail doesn't seem to be able to cope with the fiddly bits either. It would help somewhat if you separated paragraphs with a double return instead of just indenting the first line. I've had to do that before getting Pluto to reformat so that your last two paragraphs don't end up as one. > Could the messages Vince spotted have come from phones? Mine was created in Pluto on an ARMX6. John -- John McCartney j.mccartney at blueyonder.co.uk From vatory at abbeypress.co.uk Fri Jul 13 13:26:11 2018 From: vatory at abbeypress.co.uk (Jim Nagel) Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2018 13:26:11 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] / how to switch Quoting off? In-Reply-To: <62160.91.85.218.30.1531472256.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> References: <49458.91.85.218.30.1531387695.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <66d26b1657.jim@6.abbeypress.net> <62160.91.85.218.30.1531472256.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> Message-ID: <01b9f51657.jim@6.abbeypress.net> Bob Ardler via Virtualacorn-list wrote on 13 Jul: > ... Most of ... our local environment discussion group with 32ish > members ... quote in full (including each Cc) every previous message > on the topic. Could be that this apparent goofitude is caused by > people using smartphones on the move being unable to do the fiddly > bits. I would think that whatever email software they are using, on smartphone or desktop or wherever, would have something in Settings (or Configure or similar name) where they could switch quoting off. Otherwise, I guess the problem with hoi polloi is just that they are too lazy to use their Delete key before they hit Send. (Pet peeve.) -- Jim Nagel www.archivemag.co.uk From Stuartlists at orpheusinternet.co.uk Fri Jul 13 18:27:38 2018 From: Stuartlists at orpheusinternet.co.uk (lists) Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2018 17:27:38 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients In-Reply-To: <62160.91.85.218.30.1531472256.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> References: <49458.91.85.218.30.1531387695.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <66d26b1657.jim@6.abbeypress.net> <62160.91.85.218.30.1531472256.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> Message-ID: <571711523dStuartlists@orpheusinternet.co.uk> In article <62160.91.85.218.30.1531472256.squirrel at email.orpheusnet.co.uk>, Bob Ardler via Virtualacorn-list wrote: > One misses Pluto's style and versatility, So why aren't you using it instead of trying to use webmail? -- Stuart Winsor Tools With A Mission sending tools across the world http://www.twam.co.uk/ From pnyoung at ormail.co.uk Fri Jul 13 17:47:33 2018 From: pnyoung at ormail.co.uk (Peter Young) Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2018 17:47:33 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients In-Reply-To: <571711523dStuartlists@orpheusinternet.co.uk> References: <49458.91.85.218.30.1531387695.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <66d26b1657.jim@6.abbeypress.net> <62160.91.85.218.30.1531472256.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <571711523dStuartlists@orpheusinternet.co.uk> Message-ID: On 13 Jul 2018 lists via Virtualacorn-list wrote: > In article <62160.91.85.218.30.1531472256.squirrel at email.orpheusnet.co.uk>, > Bob Ardler via Virtualacorn-list > wrote: >> One misses Pluto's style and versatility, > So why aren't you using it instead of trying to use webmail? +1. Webmail is the invention from Hell. Best wishes, Peter. -- Peter Young (zfc Au) and family Prestbury, Cheltenham, Glos. GL52, England http://pnyoung.orpheusweb.co.uk pnyoung at ormail.co.uk From dave at triffid.co.uk Fri Jul 13 19:12:57 2018 From: dave at triffid.co.uk (Dave Symes) Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2018 19:12:57 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients In-Reply-To: References: <49458.91.85.218.30.1531387695.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <66d26b1657.jim@6.abbeypress.net> <62160.91.85.218.30.1531472256.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <571711523dStuartlists@orpheusinternet.co.uk> Message-ID: <5717157835dave@triffid.co.uk> In article , Peter Young via Virtualacorn-list wrote: > On 13 Jul 2018 lists via Virtualacorn-list > wrote: > > In article <62160.91.85.218.30.1531472256.squirrel at email.orpheusnet.co.uk>, > > Bob Ardler via Virtualacorn-list > > wrote: > >> One misses Pluto's style and versatility, > > So why aren't you using it instead of trying to use webmail? > +1. Webmail is the invention from Hell. > Best wishes, > Peter. I can think of a number of other things that are inventions from hell... On balance, while Webmail is crude it has its uses. Dave -- Dave Triffid From ardler at argonet.co.uk Fri Jul 20 15:48:41 2018 From: ardler at argonet.co.uk (Bob Ardler) Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2018 15:48:41 +0100 (BST) Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients Message-ID: <53160.91.85.218.30.1532098121.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> John McCartney wrote: re: >> !NetFetch and !Messenger sit where >> Andrew's team put them on the pinboard, but to email we >> just NetSurf webmail, log in & do it all on Netsurf. > That'll be why your e-mails look a mess when viewed (in my > case) on Pluto. The threading is broken and quoting is > discontinuous. In order to compose this reply, I've had to > extensively edit your last email to make it more easily > readable. Well, same here with many others' emails. (Broken-threading and continuous-quoting are terms beyond my ken.) >> [...] group with 32ish members put 32ish addressees >> in Cc, not Bcc. Most of them also quote in full >> (including each Cc) every previous message on the topic. >> Could be [...] caused by [...] smart phones on the move >> being unable to do the fiddly bits. > Your use of NetSurf and webmail doesn't seem to be able to > cope with the fiddly bits either. It would help somewhat if > you separated paragraphs with a double return instead of > just indenting the first line. I've had to do that before > getting Pluto to reformat so that your last two paragraphs > don't end up as one. OK, indent bad, double return good now added to goodmanners. Yonks ago Paul Vigay said no more Pluto, webmail now, use your browser. Hence the NetSurfing, as the RiscOS FireFox doesn't work here and Webster pages have weird layout. Andrew made NetFetch pop up on RiscOS entry with multiple options needing study & practice, so am sticking with the simple way. Didn't realize it rattles Pluto. Er, typed this days ago & clicked Save Draft instead of Send. Dementia rules. Bob From styleguide at avisoft.f9.co.uk Fri Jul 20 17:14:45 2018 From: styleguide at avisoft.f9.co.uk (Martin) Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2018 17:14:45 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients In-Reply-To: <53160.91.85.218.30.1532098121.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> References: <53160.91.85.218.30.1532098121.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> Message-ID: <571aa57fd4styleguide@avisoft.f9.co.uk> On 20 Jul in article <53160.91.85.218.30.1532098121.squirrel at email.orpheusnet.co.uk>, Bob Ardler via Virtualacorn-list wrote: > John McCartney wrote: > re: > >> !NetFetch and !Messenger sit where > >> Andrew's team put them on the pinboard, but to email we > >> just NetSurf webmail, log in & do it all on Netsurf. > > That'll be why your e-mails look a mess when viewed (in my > > case) on Pluto. The threading is broken and quoting is > > discontinuous. In order to compose this reply, I've had to > > extensively edit your last email to make it more easily > > readable. > Well, same here with many others' emails. (Broken-threading > and continuous-quoting are terms beyond my ken.) Broken Threads are when messages which are replies do not contain in their header lines (not normally seen) a 'References:' header containing a reference to the original message. This means that mail readers which can display message 'threads' properly cannot do so, and the thread is 'broken'. Then the only way to group messages together is by the subject. Strangely, of your 3 replies in this thread, one was referenced correctly, the other two were not. Continuous Quoting probably refers to the nasty habit of some mail programs to send chunks of text which are way way over the standard 70 or so line length limit. When quoted, there is just one quote indicator (eg '>') at the start of many lines of displayed text, instead of at the start of every displayed line. > > Your use of NetSurf and webmail doesn't seem to be able to > > cope with the fiddly bits either. It would help somewhat if > > you separated paragraphs with a double return instead of > > just indenting the first line. I've had to do that before > > getting Pluto to reformat so that your last two paragraphs > > don't end up as one. > OK, indent bad, double return good now added to goodmanners. > Yonks ago Paul Vigay said no more Pluto, webmail now, use > your browser. Hence the NetSurfing, as the RiscOS FireFox > doesn't work here and Webster pages have weird layout. > Andrew made NetFetch pop up on RiscOS entry with multiple > options needing study & practice, so am sticking with the > simple way. Didn't realize it rattles Pluto. Pluto will happily display most non-standard messages without being rattled, but they can be more difficult to read and reply to than standard ones. In an earlier post, you wrote: > One misses Pluto's style and versatility, but learning how to use > it with webmail seems too much bother. If you miss Pluto, then it can easily be used on any RISC OS machine. You do not use it 'with webmail'. The fetching and sending of emails for Pluto over the Internet is handled by a Transport Application as always - eg AntiSpam, POPstar, Hermes (probably in your NetFetch). For further details of Pluto, see www.avisoft.f9.co.uk/Pluto for infomation and a contact email address. IMHO when away from your RISC OS machine but with access to a browser, Webmail has its uses, but I personally would not like to use it all the time. Martin -- Martin Avison using a British Iyonix running RISC OS 5 and the Pluto mail and newsreader From ardler at argonet.co.uk Sun Jul 22 11:04:01 2018 From: ardler at argonet.co.uk (Bob Ardler) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2018 11:04:01 +0100 (BST) Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients threadcut In-Reply-To: <571aa57fd4styleguide@avisoft.f9.co.uk> References: <53160.91.85.218.30.1532098121.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <571aa57fd4styleguide@avisoft.f9.co.uk> Message-ID: <50053.91.85.218.30.1532253841.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> Martin Avison wrote: Re: >> [...] Broken-threading & continuous-quoting are beyond my ken. > Broken Threads are when messages which are replies do not contain in > their header lines (not normally seen) a 'References:' header > containing a reference to the original message. This means that mail > readers which can display message 'threads' properly cannot do so, > and the thread is 'broken'. Then the only way to group messages > together is by the subject. Strangely, of your 3 replies in this > thread, one was referenced correctly, the other two were not. > > Continuous Quoting probably refers to the nasty habit of some mail > programs to send chunks of text which are way way over the standard > 70 or so line length limit. When quoted, there is just one quote > indicator (eg '>') at the start of many lines of displayed text, > instead of at the start of every displayed line. > Pluto will happily display most non-standard messages without being > rattled, but they can be more difficult to read and reply to than > standard ones. > > In an earlier post, you wrote: >> One misses Pluto's style and versatility, but learning how to use >> it with webmail seems too much bother. > > If you miss Pluto, then it can easily be used on any RISC OS machine. > You do not use it 'with webmail'. > The fetching and sending of emails for Pluto over the Internet is > handled by a Transport Application as always - eg AntiSpam, POPstar, > Hermes (probably in your NetFetch). > > For further details of Pluto, see www.avisoft.f9.co.uk/Pluto for > infomation and a contact email address. > > IMHO when away from your RISC OS machine but with access to a > browser, Webmail has its uses, but I personally would not like to use > it all the time. Thanks, Martin, for several clarifications. Can now see, with apologies, that my questions have cut Vince M Hudd's thread with digression. Have googled & learnt you've taken over Pluto & his e-creation from Jonathan Duddington -- a vital job which gave huge benefit to a brave partially-sighted woman in Greenwich. Sadly, the message from Paul Vigay (or successor?) and argonet was quite clear: webmail from now on. In any case, filing by hand & sorting by sender (or e-list and subject) has become routine. So it's a sad goodbye to splendid Pluto & Jonathan (couldn't find what's become of him on Google). Good luck with your splendid work, Bob From atdotcodotuk at dotcodotukat.co.uk Sun Jul 22 11:22:45 2018 From: atdotcodotuk at dotcodotukat.co.uk (Vince M Hudd) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2018 11:22:45 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients threadcut In-Reply-To: <50053.91.85.218.30.1532253841.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> References: <53160.91.85.218.30.1532098121.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <571aa57fd4styleguide@avisoft.f9.co.uk> <50053.91.85.218.30.1532253841.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> Message-ID: <7e4cd432-da5c-4acb-30e4-6b78a5959d5a@dotcodotukat.co.uk> On 22/07/18 11:04, Bob Ardler via Virtualacorn-list wrote: > Sadly, the message from Paul Vigay (or successor?) and argonet was > quite clear: webmail from now on. In all honesty, I'd be absolutely amazed if Paul said anything of the sort - and I can't see Richard Brown (who now runs Orpheus) suggesting something like that, either. Orpheus has always included mailboxes accessed in the normal way as part of the service. I strongly suspect that you've misunderstood something that one of them has said. -- Vince M Hudd - Soft Rock Software - www.softrock.co.uk RISCOSitory - www.riscository.com From druck at druck.org.uk Sun Jul 22 12:09:51 2018 From: druck at druck.org.uk (David J. Ruck) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2018 12:09:51 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients threadcut In-Reply-To: <50053.91.85.218.30.1532253841.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> References: <53160.91.85.218.30.1532098121.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <571aa57fd4styleguide@avisoft.f9.co.uk> <50053.91.85.218.30.1532253841.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> Message-ID: <27b2c074-49f1-7b8f-1d4b-4d1cc77cda5d@druck.org.uk> On 22/07/2018 11:04, Bob Ardler via Virtualacorn-list wrote: > Sadly, the message from Paul > Vigay (or successor?) and argonet was quite clear: webmail from now > on. In any case, filing by hand & sorting by sender (or e-list and > subject) has become routine. So it's a sad goodbye to splendid Pluto > & Jonathan (couldn't find what's become of him on Google). Well there are other ISPs which still provide email, but if you are determined to stay with Orpheus, there are other options. Some webmail providers also provide POP and IMAP access, such as gmail. There are also a number of free and subscription email services which you can use from any ISP. ---druck -- Email: druck at druck.org.uk Phone: +44-(0)7974 108301 From Stuartlists at orpheusinternet.co.uk Sun Jul 22 21:34:28 2018 From: Stuartlists at orpheusinternet.co.uk (lists) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2018 21:34:28 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients threadcut In-Reply-To: <27b2c074-49f1-7b8f-1d4b-4d1cc77cda5d@druck.org.uk> References: <53160.91.85.218.30.1532098121.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <571aa57fd4styleguide@avisoft.f9.co.uk> <50053.91.85.218.30.1532253841.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <27b2c074-49f1-7b8f-1d4b-4d1cc77cda5d@druck.org.uk> Message-ID: <571bc4f2e2Stuartlists@orpheusinternet.co.uk> In article <27b2c074-49f1-7b8f-1d4b-4d1cc77cda5d at druck.org.uk>, David J. Ruck via Virtualacorn-list wrote: > Well there are other ISPs which still provide email, but if you are > determined to stay with Orpheus, Orpheus do still provide email and as far as I am aware there is no plan to drop it. Of three aliases I have, one is an Orpheus domain account, one is an Argonet domain account and the third a zfc domain account. I think I am probably one of only a couple of people with the latter and I have paid the domain renewal fees for the last couple of times (a trifilling amount really) One only has to check out http://www.orpheusinternet.co.uk/email/ Orpheus also still provide full, unrestricted, newsgroup access via Gignews > Some webmail providers also provide POP and IMAP access, such as gmail. GMAIL!!! for goodness sake! -- Stuart Winsor Tools With A Mission sending tools across the world http://www.twam.co.uk/ From Stuartlists at orpheusinternet.co.uk Sun Jul 22 21:16:08 2018 From: Stuartlists at orpheusinternet.co.uk (lists) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2018 21:16:08 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients threadcut In-Reply-To: <7e4cd432-da5c-4acb-30e4-6b78a5959d5a@dotcodotukat.co.uk> References: <53160.91.85.218.30.1532098121.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <571aa57fd4styleguide@avisoft.f9.co.uk> <50053.91.85.218.30.1532253841.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <7e4cd432-da5c-4acb-30e4-6b78a5959d5a@dotcodotukat.co.uk> Message-ID: <571bc34567Stuartlists@orpheusinternet.co.uk> In article <7e4cd432-da5c-4acb-30e4-6b78a5959d5a at dotcodotukat.co.uk>, Vince M Hudd via Virtualacorn-list wrote: > On 22/07/18 11:04, Bob Ardler via Virtualacorn-list wrote: > > Sadly, the message from Paul Vigay (or successor?) and argonet was > > quite clear: webmail from now on. > In all honesty, I'd be absolutely amazed if Paul said anything of the > sort - So would I! > and I can't see Richard Brown (who now runs Orpheus) suggesting > something like that, either. Orpheus has always included mailboxes > accessed in the normal way as part of the service. When I moved back from Pipex to Orpheus, (I'd been with Argonet right up to latter days, when it was overrun with spam and jumped ship) Paul seemed quite happy to provide three separate user IDs on one account at no extra cost, so that different members of the family could fetch their mail independently. He implied that email accounts were "no big deal" and quite trivial to set up and manage. > I strongly suspect that you've misunderstood something that one of them > has said. I would second that. -- Stuart Winsor Tools With A Mission sending tools across the world http://www.twam.co.uk/ From Stuartlists at orpheusinternet.co.uk Sun Jul 22 21:39:59 2018 From: Stuartlists at orpheusinternet.co.uk (lists) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2018 21:39:59 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients In-Reply-To: <571aa57fd4styleguide@avisoft.f9.co.uk> References: <53160.91.85.218.30.1532098121.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <571aa57fd4styleguide@avisoft.f9.co.uk> Message-ID: <571bc5745cStuartlists@orpheusinternet.co.uk> In article <571aa57fd4styleguide at avisoft.f9.co.uk>, Martin via Virtualacorn-list wrote: > IMHO when away from your RISC OS machine but with access to a > browser, Webmail has its uses, but I personally would not like to use > it all the time. My opinion too. It's useful when I am away on holiday - !NetSurf on VA on a little Dell Lattitude 2110 but I only use it to check personal emails, mailing lists can wait till I get back home. -- Stuart Winsor Tools With A Mission sending tools across the world http://www.twam.co.uk/ From pnyoung at ormail.co.uk Sun Jul 22 21:48:57 2018 From: pnyoung at ormail.co.uk (Peter Young) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2018 21:48:57 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients In-Reply-To: <571bc5745cStuartlists@orpheusinternet.co.uk> References: <53160.91.85.218.30.1532098121.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <571aa57fd4styleguide@avisoft.f9.co.uk> <571bc5745cStuartlists@orpheusinternet.co.uk> Message-ID: <7046c61b57.pnyoung@pnyoung.ormail.co.uk> On 22 Jul 2018 lists via Virtualacorn-list wrote: > In article <571aa57fd4styleguide at avisoft.f9.co.uk>, > Martin via Virtualacorn-list > wrote: >> IMHO when away from your RISC OS machine but with access to a >> browser, Webmail has its uses, but I personally would not like to use >> it all the time. > My opinion too. It's useful when I am away on holiday - !NetSurf on VA on > a little Dell Lattitude 2110 but I only use it to check personal emails, > mailing lists can wait till I get back home. I have used Orpheus webmail when away, but it totally fouls up any formatting in a reply. What I do now is to use NetFetch and Messenger Pro while I'm away?on VRPC, with "delete all fetched mails" turned off, and bcc any replies I make to my own address. When I'm back I can save these messages as .eml files and import them into my MPro on this VRPC using ShareFS. Problem solved, go thou and do likewise! Best wishes, Peter. -- Peter Young (zfc Au) and family Prestbury, Cheltenham, Glos. GL52, England http://pnyoung.orpheusweb.co.uk pnyoung at ormail.co.uk From Stuartlists at orpheusinternet.co.uk Sun Jul 22 22:15:25 2018 From: Stuartlists at orpheusinternet.co.uk (lists) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2018 22:15:25 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients In-Reply-To: <7046c61b57.pnyoung@pnyoung.ormail.co.uk> References: <53160.91.85.218.30.1532098121.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <571aa57fd4styleguide@avisoft.f9.co.uk> <571bc5745cStuartlists@orpheusinternet.co.uk> <7046c61b57.pnyoung@pnyoung.ormail.co.uk> Message-ID: <571bc8b2a2Stuartlists@orpheusinternet.co.uk> In article <7046c61b57.pnyoung at pnyoung.ormail.co.uk>, Peter Young via Virtualacorn-list wrote: > I have used Orpheus webmail when away, but it totally fouls up any > formatting in a reply. What I do now is to use NetFetch and Messenger > Pro while I'm away#on VRPC, with "delete all fetched mails" turned off, > and bcc any replies I make to my own address. When I'm back I can save > these messages as .eml files and import them into my MPro on this VRPC > using ShareFS. Problem solved, go thou and do likewise! Yes. Whilst I check my emails I don't reply unless it is urgent that I do so. They are all then dealt with when I get back home, to !POPstar and !Pluto. -- Stuart Winsor Tools With A Mission sending tools across the world http://www.twam.co.uk/ From cvjazz at waitrose.com Sun Jul 22 23:34:29 2018 From: cvjazz at waitrose.com (Chris Newman) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2018 23:34:29 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients threadcut In-Reply-To: <7e4cd432-da5c-4acb-30e4-6b78a5959d5a@dotcodotukat.co.uk> References: <53160.91.85.218.30.1532098121.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <571aa57fd4styleguide@avisoft.f9.co.uk> <50053.91.85.218.30.1532253841.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <7e4cd432-da5c-4acb-30e4-6b78a5959d5a@dotcodotukat.co.uk> Message-ID: <571bcfeff9cvjazz@waitrose.com> In article <7e4cd432-da5c-4acb-30e4-6b78a5959d5a at dotcodotukat.co.uk>, Vince M Hudd via Virtualacorn-list wrote: > On 22/07/18 11:04, Bob Ardler via Virtualacorn-list wrote: > > Sadly, the message from Paul Vigay (or successor?) and argonet was > > quite clear: webmail from now on. > In all honesty, I'd be absolutely amazed if Paul said anything of the > sort - and I can't see Richard Brown (who now runs Orpheus) suggesting > something like that, either. Orpheus has always included mailboxes > accessed in the normal way as part of the service. > I strongly suspect that you've misunderstood something that one of them > has said. I concur. Knowing Paul Vigay well here in Portsmouth he was fanatical about cyber safety & always preferred downloading his mail to his machine(s) rather than using the web. I use Pluto on a RiscPC at home & Virtual Acorn when I'm away & that includes being on the other side of the world. When in foreign parts I log into webmail once so they know where I genuinely am & stop pestering me about safety then it's back to Pluto & Netfetch. I only check my accounts on the web now & again to check they haven't put something I really needed in the junk folder. I use PoP3 & set Netfetch to delete messages from the server after downloading. If you want a belt & braces approach you can leave them on the web to be reviewed later or downloaded to another device. What's not to like. -- Chris From ardler at argonet.co.uk Mon Jul 23 12:09:26 2018 From: ardler at argonet.co.uk (Bob Ardler) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2018 12:09:26 +0100 (BST) Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients threadcut Message-ID: <49366.91.85.218.30.1532344166.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> Clarification: Vince M Hudd wrote, re my claim that Paul or Richard or others said webmail from now on: > In all honesty, I'd be absolutely amazed if Paul said anything of the > sort - and I can't see Richard Brown (who now runs Orpheus) suggesting > something like that, either. Orpheus has always included mailboxes > accessed in the normal way as part of the service. > I strongly suspect that you've misunderstood something that one of > them has said. Dementiated memory prevents correct dates. Roughly: by late 80s was using a now-extinct browser &c on the Archimedes. Pluto arrived and helped greatly. Switch to 1st Iyonix was ok. On updated Iyonix email failed, Castle inaccessible by phone or snailmail. Phoned Argonet, and their solution was something unknown to me -- webmail, which they explained in detail. Am now used to webmail and shall stick to it. The intelligent notes from VMH, Druck, SW, PY & CN indicate knowledge & skill beyond this declining brain -- especially where RTFM is needed. (Those who know enough to write manuals seldom know what the dontknows need to know.) So it's webmail here, but long may Jonathan's and Martin's work flourish. (What did become of Jonathan?) Bob -- Islington North From Stuartlists at orpheusinternet.co.uk Mon Jul 23 14:29:40 2018 From: Stuartlists at orpheusinternet.co.uk (lists) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2018 14:29:40 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients threadcut In-Reply-To: <49366.91.85.218.30.1532344166.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> References: <49366.91.85.218.30.1532344166.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> Message-ID: <571c21e48aStuartlists@orpheusinternet.co.uk> In article <49366.91.85.218.30.1532344166.squirrel at email.orpheusnet.co.uk>, Bob Ardler via Virtualacorn-list wrote: > Am now used to webmail and shall stick to it. The intelligent notes > from VMH, Druck, SW, PY & CN indicate knowledge & skill beyond this > declining brain -- especially where RTFM is needed. (Those who know > enough to write manuals seldom know what the dontknows need to know.) > So it's webmail here, but long may Jonathan's and Martin's work > flourish. (What did become of Jonathan?) Jonathan continued with his principle interest, which was in producing speech on the computer, for some time after passing !Pluto on for further development to Martin. http://espeak.sourceforge.net/ The documentation for !Pluto is, with all due respect to Jonathan, a lttle rudimentary, consisting, as it does, of a number of text files. However Brian Bailey, a user, produced a much better, "proper" manual in !Ovation format and I have a draft copy here. -- Stuart Winsor Tools With A Mission sending tools across the world http://www.twam.co.uk/ From styleguide at avisoft.f9.co.uk Mon Jul 23 15:04:49 2018 From: styleguide at avisoft.f9.co.uk (Martin) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2018 15:04:49 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients threadcut In-Reply-To: <571c21e48aStuartlists@orpheusinternet.co.uk> References: <49366.91.85.218.30.1532344166.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <571c21e48aStuartlists@orpheusinternet.co.uk> Message-ID: <571c251c93styleguide@avisoft.f9.co.uk> On 23 Jul in article <571c21e48aStuartlists at orpheusinternet.co.uk>, lists via Virtualacorn-list wrote: > The documentation for !Pluto is, with all due respect to Jonathan, > a lttle rudimentary, consisting, as it does, of a number of text > files. The original documentation by Jonathan was indeed a number of text files. However, many years ago I took those and added vast amounts of information culled from internet postings and created a StrongHelp manual. Since I have had access to the Pluto sources it has had further updates, and from v3.06 it has been included with Pluto and is on the iconbar menu. The original text documents are no longer distributed. I know StrongHelp is not everyone's favourite, but it is small, fast, and enables one or many pages to be displayed, and instant searches to be done. It is the only complete and up-to-date documentation that I am aware of, and has a full alphabetic Index and a structured Contents. If I had time, I would complete my StrongHelp conversion facility: Anyone got any spare? I would also add that the Pluto developments I have done have only been possible because of the changes that Robert Sprowson has done, and the help in understanding C that he has given me. Martin -- Martin Avison using a British Iyonix running RISC OS 5 and the Pluto mail and newsreader From atdotcodotuk at dotcodotukat.co.uk Mon Jul 23 15:43:50 2018 From: atdotcodotuk at dotcodotukat.co.uk (Vince M Hudd) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2018 15:43:50 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients threadcut In-Reply-To: <571c251c93styleguide@avisoft.f9.co.uk> References: <49366.91.85.218.30.1532344166.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <571c21e48aStuartlists@orpheusinternet.co.uk> <571c251c93styleguide@avisoft.f9.co.uk> Message-ID: <790d3fdf-1314-89a3-84dd-d157262603f7@dotcodotukat.co.uk> On 23/07/2018 15:04, Martin via Virtualacorn-list wrote: [Pluto's documentation] This really belongs on the Pluto list - so I'll post it here and then re-post it there. I suggest anyone with any interest in Pluto subscribes and continues this discussion there: plutousers at yahoogroups.com (yuck!) > I know StrongHelp is not everyone's favourite, but it is small, fast, > and enables one or many pages to be displayed, and instant searches > to be done. It is the only complete and up-to-date documentation that > I am aware of, and has a full alphabetic Index and a structured > Contents. If I had time, I would complete my StrongHelp conversion > facility: Anyone got any spare? I'm not entirely familiar with the StrongHelp file format[1], but isn't it just a sort of mark up? If so, I wonder if something like WebChange can be used to convert individual pages to something like XML? I suggest XML because there does exist one and a half tools for converting from XML to other formats. One is Steve Fryatt's, and (IIRC) can convert from XML to various formats - including StrongHelp. The other is a half (well, tenth) written one of my own (which may or may not become part of WebChange, or a separate thing in its own right) which I aim to make more customisable, so it can theoretically go from XML to anything at all that it's possible to write a config/rules file for. (I'm holding off writing it fully until the WebChange manual is written - which I'm slowly working on in XML. Because of that time stuff you mentioned.) [1] I'm a StrongHelp loather, so I never use it for my own documentation[2], and only ever look at SH documentation for other stuff as a last resort [2] Shut up Ron, if you're reading this list. ;) -- Vince M Hudd Soft Rock Software - www.softrock.co.uk RISCOSitory - www.riscository.com From j.mccartney at blueyonder.co.uk Mon Jul 23 17:07:00 2018 From: j.mccartney at blueyonder.co.uk (John McCartney) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2018 17:07:00 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients In-Reply-To: <53160.91.85.218.30.1532098121.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> References: <53160.91.85.218.30.1532098121.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> Message-ID: <571c304c70j.mccartney@blueyonder.co.uk> In article <53160.91.85.218.30.1532098121.squirrel at email.orpheusnet.co.uk>, Bob Ardler via Virtualacorn-list wrote: > John McCartney wrote: re: > >> !NetFetch and !Messenger sit where Andrew's team put > >> them on the pinboard, but to email we just NetSurf > >> webmail, log in & do it all on Netsurf. > > That'll be why your e-mails look a mess when viewed (in > > my case) on Pluto. The threading is broken and quoting > > is discontinuous. In order to compose this reply, I've > > had to extensively edit your last email to make it more > > easily readable. > Well, same here with many others' emails. > (Broken-threading and continuous-quoting are terms beyond > my ken.) Ok. If this list accepts attachments, I'll take a snapshot of what your e-mail looks like in Pluto so that you can see the problems. Does the list accept attachments? > >> [...] group with 32ish members put 32ish addressees in > >> Cc, not Bcc. Most of them also quote in full > >> (including each Cc) every previous message on the > >> topic. Could be [...] caused by [...] smart phones on > >> the move being unable to do the fiddly bits. > > Your use of NetSurf and webmail doesn't seem to be able > > to cope with the fiddly bits either. It would help > > somewhat if you separated paragraphs with a double > > return instead of just indenting the first line. I've > > had to do that before getting Pluto to reformat so that > > your last two paragraphs don't end up as one. > OK, indent bad, double return good now added to > goodmanners. Splendid! Old dogs, new tricks eh, what? > Yonks ago Paul Vigay said no more Pluto, webmail now, use > your browser. Despite his many good points, Paul was (in my opinion) quite wrong in this matter. I only use web-mail in extremis. > Hence the NetSurfing, as the RiscOS FireFox doesn't work > here and Webster pages have weird layout. Andrew made > NetFetch pop up on RiscOS entry with multiple options > needing study & practice, so am sticking with the simple > way. Didn't realize it rattles Pluto. > Er, typed this days ago & clicked Save Draft instead of > Send. Dementia rules. I would have answered straight away but my Virgin Media Hub suffered a terminal decline last Tuesday and, due to lack of communication by VM, has only just been replaced this afternoon. John -- John McCartney j.mccartney at blueyonder.co.uk From atdotcodotuk at dotcodotukat.co.uk Mon Jul 23 19:25:19 2018 From: atdotcodotuk at dotcodotukat.co.uk (Vince M Hudd) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2018 19:25:19 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients In-Reply-To: <571c304c70j.mccartney@blueyonder.co.uk> References: <53160.91.85.218.30.1532098121.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <571c304c70j.mccartney@blueyonder.co.uk> Message-ID: <63547f05-d6dc-1964-4985-eb3413348596@dotcodotukat.co.uk> On 23/07/18 17:07, John McCartney via Virtualacorn-list wrote: > In article > <53160.91.85.218.30.1532098121.squirrel at email.orpheusnet.co.uk>, > Bob Ardler via Virtualacorn-list [...] >> Well, same here with many others' emails. >> (Broken-threading and continuous-quoting are terms beyond >> my ken.) > Ok. If this list accepts attachments, I'll take a snapshot > of what your e-mail looks like in Pluto so that you can > see the problems. > Does the list accept attachments? I can't remember the exact settings I've given it, but the answer should be no. And if I don't have it set correctly, and attachments can be posted, the sender will end up on my naughty list. So they'll be subject to a good telling off, and put on moderation - with the latter meaning their messages are likely to be delayed until I notice and approve them. i.e. don't post attachments. Better to bung an image up on some webspace somewhere and just post the link to it. There's also an upper size limit on messages - probably around 10kB. -- Vince M Hudd - Soft Rock Software - www.softrock.co.uk RISCOSitory - www.riscository.com From j.mccartney at blueyonder.co.uk Tue Jul 24 12:34:29 2018 From: j.mccartney at blueyonder.co.uk (John McCartney) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2018 12:34:29 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients In-Reply-To: <63547f05-d6dc-1964-4985-eb3413348596@dotcodotukat.co.uk> References: <53160.91.85.218.30.1532098121.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <571c304c70j.mccartney@blueyonder.co.uk> <63547f05-d6dc-1964-4985-eb3413348596@dotcodotukat.co.uk> Message-ID: <571c9b2f1dj.mccartney@blueyonder.co.uk> In article <63547f05-d6dc-1964-4985-eb3413348596 at dotcodotukat.co.uk>, Vince M Hudd via Virtualacorn-list wrote: > > Does the list accept attachments? > I can't remember the exact settings I've given it, but > the answer should be no. Ok. I can live with that. > And if I don't have it set correctly, and attachments can > be posted, the sender will end up on my naughty list. Oh, nooooo! The very thought of being on anyone's naughty list fills me with dread... :-) > So they'll be subject to a good telling off, and put on > moderation - with the latter meaning their messages are > likely to be delayed until I notice and approve them. > i.e. don't post attachments. Better to bung an image up > on some webspace somewhere and just post the link to it. I've just picked up a personal e-mail from Bob but am preoccupied with landscapers who have started today. I'll put images on Dropbox later today. John -- John McCartney j.mccartney at blueyonder.co.uk From dave at triffid.co.uk Tue Jul 24 19:53:30 2018 From: dave at triffid.co.uk (Dave Symes) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2018 19:53:30 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Shutdown problem VRPC and Windows Message-ID: <571cc36083dave@triffid.co.uk> I'm wondering if anyone else here has encountered this problem. Fay's computer is running Win 7 Pro and VRPC-Adjust SA and for the most part no particular problems. However occasionally on shutting down VRPC using either the Switcher Menu "Shutdown" or Ctrl+Shift+F12 VRPC shuts down, then the monitor screen goes black and that's it, as it seems to be frozen in that state. No mouse pointer, no keyboard action from a three fingered salute... Nada. Press and hold the front power switch on the computer to force a power off is the only exit from this freeze state. Worth noting, the W7 PC itself never has any trouble booting up or legit closing down, the above noted only happens occasionally when exiting VRPC. Any thoughts please. Thanks Dave -- Dave Triffid From bbailey at argonet.co.uk Wed Jul 25 10:29:42 2018 From: bbailey at argonet.co.uk (Brian) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2018 10:29:42 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Shutdown problem VRPC and Windows In-Reply-To: <571cc36083dave@triffid.co.uk> References: <571cc36083dave@triffid.co.uk> Message-ID: <571d139894bbailey@argonet.co.uk> In article <571cc36083dave at triffid.co.uk>, Dave Symes via Virtualacorn-list wrote: > I'm wondering if anyone else here has encountered this problem. > Fay's computer is running Win 7 Pro and VRPC-Adjust SA and for the most > part no particular problems. However occasionally on shutting down VRPC > using either the Switcher Menu "Shutdown" or Ctrl+Shift+F12 VRPC shuts > down, then the monitor screen goes black and that's it, as it seems to > be frozen in that state. > No mouse pointer, no keyboard action from a three fingered salute... > Nada. > Press and hold the front power switch on the computer to force a power > off is the only exit from this freeze state. > Worth noting, the W7 PC itself never has any trouble booting up or legit > closing down, the above noted only happens occasionally when exiting > VRPC. > Any thoughts please. Not sure that this is the slightest bit of help, Dave, but I have noticed some variability in the time 'lag' between changing from VRPC screen to Win 7 screen on shutdown. It certainly isn't instantaneous. Conversely, on VRPC startup from Win 7 I have had a 'seized' black screen, once or twice I believe, that I reported some time back. Just had to get rough with a reset boot from the power switch. Graphics card/memory problem perhaps? Dunno? Just a wild guess! Best wishes Brian From j.mccartney at blueyonder.co.uk Wed Jul 25 11:10:02 2018 From: j.mccartney at blueyonder.co.uk (John McCartney) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2018 10:10:02 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients In-Reply-To: <571c9b2f1dj.mccartney@blueyonder.co.uk> References: <53160.91.85.218.30.1532098121.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <571c304c70j.mccartney@blueyonder.co.uk> <63547f05-d6dc-1964-4985-eb3413348596@dotcodotukat.co.uk> <571c9b2f1dj.mccartney@blueyonder.co.uk> Message-ID: <571d1749f5j.mccartney@blueyonder.co.uk> In article <571c9b2f1dj.mccartney at blueyonder.co.uk>, John McCartney via Virtualacorn-list wrote: > I've just picked up a personal e-mail from Bob but am > preoccupied with landscapers who have started today. I'll > put images on Dropbox later today. Here's the link: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/dmh2vk6l1u77jdt/AADZGt_82hll1XDtpXzha-Y3a?dl=0 I'm assuming that everyone on this list can access Dropbox from Windows or a Mac. If you're reading this in RISC OS, change the final 0 (zero) to a 1 (one) so that it downloads in NetSurf as a ZIP file. For Bob's benefit, the red boxes in BrokenQuote show where Pluto loses the threading level colour after the first line of the paragraph. The black arrows indicate the presence of a single return instead of a double one. In BrokenThread, the arrows show where your posts appear without being linked to the one(s) you're replying to. From the headers in your posts, it seems that you've just copied and pasted the bits you want to refer to because there isn't a line starting with "In-Reply-To:" Even if you *are* using web mail, there is a button to generate a proper reply, at least there is in the few systems I've seen. I hope this clarifies things for you, Bob. John -- John McCartney j.mccartney at blueyonder.co.uk From ardler at argonet.co.uk Wed Jul 25 16:49:05 2018 From: ardler at argonet.co.uk (Bob Ardler) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2018 16:49:05 +0100 (BST) Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients Message-ID: <50064.91.85.218.30.1532533745.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> 3rd shot, as "Reply all" was rejected for "too many recipients": > John McCartney wrote: > >> I've just picked up a personal e-mail from Bob but am >> preoccupied with landscapers who have started today. I'll >> put images on Dropbox later today. > > Here's the link: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/dmh2vk6l1u77jdt/AADZGt_82hll1XDtpXzha-Y3a?dl=0 > > I'm assuming that everyone on this list can access Dropbox > from Windows or a Mac. If you're reading this in RISC OS, > change the final 0 (zero) to a 1 (one) so that it downloads > in NetSurf as a ZIP file. Couldn't see how to change 0 to 1 without a self-email so did that. > For Bob's benefit, the red boxes in BrokenQuote show where > Pluto loses the threading level colour after the first line > of the paragraph. The black arrows indicate the presence of > a single return instead of a double one. Caused by differences in line-length or the CR/LF thing? Loss of all but the first >s ocasionally happens here. My 5space inset newpara was to replace tabs and reduce scrolling. Didn't know it was a sin, shall incur blackarrow no more. > In BrokenThread, the arrows show where your posts appear > without being linked to the one(s) you're replying to. From > the headers in your posts, it seems that you've just copied > and pasted the bits you want to refer to because there > isn't a line starting with "In-Reply-To:" This may be a daft misunderstanding: one email in the thread was From: sender at ownadr, not senderviaVAlist, so just for this thread I used Compose instead of Reply, thinking that Subject:?Re: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients would continue the thread -- forgetting that Pluto etc handle threading by electronic tag. > Even if you *are* using web mail, there is a button to > generate a proper reply, at least there is in the few > systems I've seen. Yes, back to the Reply button used on all other threads. No: seems the "Reply all" button's needed here. > I hope this clarifies things for you, Bob. Everything except what causes quote-mechanisms to clash. Thanks for your trouble. Hope landscaping flourishes. Bob From pnyoung at ormail.co.uk Wed Jul 25 19:08:54 2018 From: pnyoung at ormail.co.uk (Peter Young) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2018 19:08:54 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients In-Reply-To: <50064.91.85.218.30.1532533745.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> References: <50064.91.85.218.30.1532533745.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> Message-ID: <4f21431d57.pnyoung@pnyoung.ormail.co.uk> On 25 Jul 2018 Bob Ardler via Virtualacorn-list wrote: > 3rd shot, as "Reply all" was rejected for > "too many recipients": >> John McCartney wrote: >> >>> I've just picked up a personal e-mail from Bob but am >>> preoccupied with landscapers who have started today. I'll >>> put images on Dropbox later today. >> >> Here's the link: > https://www.dropbox.com/sh/dmh2vk6l1u77jdt/AADZGt_82hll1XDtpXzha-Y3a?dl=0 >> >> I'm assuming that everyone on this list can access Dropbox >> from Windows or a Mac. If you're reading this in RISC OS, >> change the final 0 (zero) to a 1 (one) so that it downloads >> in NetSurf as a ZIP file. > Couldn't see how to change 0 to 1 without a self-email so > did that. Save the message into StrongED (or maybe Zap), change the "0" into "1" and double-click the line. Bob's your uncle. Best wishes, Peter. -- Peter Young (zfc Au) and family Prestbury, Cheltenham, Glos. GL52, England http://pnyoung.orpheusweb.co.uk pnyoung at ormail.co.uk From atdotcodotuk at dotcodotukat.co.uk Wed Jul 25 21:21:36 2018 From: atdotcodotuk at dotcodotukat.co.uk (Vince M Hudd) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2018 21:21:36 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients In-Reply-To: <50064.91.85.218.30.1532533745.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> References: <50064.91.85.218.30.1532533745.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> Message-ID: <422246c8-84cb-9392-05a9-2f20d6196b87@dotcodotukat.co.uk> On 25/07/18 16:49, Bob Ardler via Virtualacorn-list wrote: > 3rd shot, as "Reply all" was rejected for "too many recipients": It wasn't rejected, it was held by the list server for my attention/approval - you've pre-empted that by reposting separately, though. This brings the thread full circle - look at the subject line and my original post: http://riscository.co.uk/pipermail/virtualacorn-list_riscository.co.uk/2018-July/002696.html So that's ironic. 8) -- Vince M Hudd - Soft Rock Software - www.softrock.co.uk RISCOSitory - www.riscository.com From ardler at argonet.co.uk Thu Jul 26 11:47:23 2018 From: ardler at argonet.co.uk (Bob Ardler) Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2018 11:47:23 +0100 (BST) Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients Message-ID: <49511.91.85.218.30.1532602043.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> Peter Young wrote: re: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/dmh2vk6l1u77jdt/AADZGt_82hll1XDtpXzha-Y3a?dl=0 >>> If you're reading this in RISC OS, >>> change the final 0 (zero) to a 1 (one) so that it downloads >>> in NetSurf as a ZIP file. > >> Couldn't see how to change 0 to 1 without a self-email so >> did that. > > Save the message into StrongED (or maybe Zap), change the > "0" into "1" and double-click the line. Bob's your uncle. Saving into Zap required saving as HTML from Zap. Zap didn't put the URL after the http:// so had to move it. Simpler than the email route. Thanks for the tip. Re the original VMH thread: clicking "Reply" here replies only to the sender you're reading; "Reply all" replies to sender plus list and causes "held for moderation" as Vince M Hudd noted. So you enter the list address by hand, which, if I understand J McC, snaps the thread. Yer carnt win. Bob From atdotcodotuk at dotcodotukat.co.uk Thu Jul 26 12:58:07 2018 From: atdotcodotuk at dotcodotukat.co.uk (Vince Hudd) Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2018 12:58:07 +0100 (BST) Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients In-Reply-To: <49511.91.85.218.30.1532602043.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> References: <49511.91.85.218.30.1532602043.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> Message-ID: <356715746.181632.1532606287339@email.1and1.co.uk> On 26 July 2018 at 11:47 Bob Ardler via Virtualacorn-list wrote: > Re the original VMH thread: clicking "Reply" here replies > only to the sender you're reading; "Reply all" replies to > sender plus list and causes "held for moderation" as Vince > M Hudd noted. So you enter the list address by hand, which, > if I understand J McC, snaps the thread. Yer carnt win. What this shows is that webmail - whether that's in general, or the specific implementation you are using - is somewhat lacking as a day to day email service. This is why a proper email client such as Pluto is a far better way to read email. Out of interest, I've just logged into the webmail service provided by my host to see how it handles list posts, and it showed a similar limitation you describe - though not quite the same. Ultimately, though, it boiled down to the same result of a reply either being sent directly to you, or to both you and the list (the Reply-all). But there is a quick fix in my case which may or may not also work for you/your webmail service: Hit reply-all, then delete the personal recipient from the To field, leaving only the list as a recipient. Indeed, this reply is being composed via my webmail service having done exactly that. From ardler at argonet.co.uk Thu Jul 26 13:34:17 2018 From: ardler at argonet.co.uk (Bob Ardler) Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2018 13:34:17 +0100 (BST) Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients In-Reply-To: <356715746.181632.1532606287339@email.1and1.co.uk> References: <49511.91.85.218.30.1532602043.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <356715746.181632.1532606287339@email.1and1.co.uk> Message-ID: <49746.91.85.218.30.1532608457.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> Vince M Hudd wrote: re: >> Re the original VMH thread: clicking "Reply" here replies >> only to the sender you're reading; "Reply all" replies to >> sender plus list and causes "held for moderation" as Vince >> M Hudd noted. So you enter the list address by hand, which, >> if I understand J McC, snaps the thread. Yer carnt win. > What this shows is that webmail - whether that's in general, or the > specific implementation you are using - is somewhat lacking as a day to > day email service. This is why a proper email client such as Pluto is a > far better way to read email. > > Out of interest, I've just logged into the webmail service provided > by my host to see how it handles list posts, and it showed a similar > limitation you describe - though not quite the same. Ultimately, > though, it boiled down to the same result of a reply either being > sent directly to you, or to both you and the list (the Reply-all). > > But there is a quick fix in my case which may or may not also work for > you/your webmail service: Hit reply-all, then delete the personal > recipient from the To field, leaving only the list as a recipient. > > Indeed, this reply is being composed via my webmail service having done > exactly that. That's weird: a blank "To:" and a "Cc:" to oneself via VAlist etc. Am trying it here. Even if it works, it doesn't explain why "Reply:" has worked in the past, with no "Multiple recipients" message. Well, it didn't -- ERROR: You have not filled in the "To" field. Moved the Cc addr into To:, trying again. From atdotcodotuk at dotcodotukat.co.uk Thu Jul 26 14:17:55 2018 From: atdotcodotuk at dotcodotukat.co.uk (Vince M Hudd) Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2018 14:17:55 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients In-Reply-To: <49746.91.85.218.30.1532608457.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> References: <49511.91.85.218.30.1532602043.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <356715746.181632.1532606287339@email.1and1.co.uk> <49746.91.85.218.30.1532608457.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> Message-ID: <90b7e045-eab8-a98c-bdb9-1d023b9bc878@dotcodotukat.co.uk> On 26/07/2018 13:34, Bob Ardler via Virtualacorn-list wrote: [My suggested work-around for replying just to the list via webmail - which works on my host's webmail, but might not elsewhere] > Even if it works, it doesn't explain why "Reply:" > has worked in the past, with no "Multiple recipients" message. If you've raised that point before, I haven't answered it because I haven't noticed it - sorry. I suspect the change occurred when I altered the list settings to cope with DMARC, a system designed to prevent email spoofing. There's a good chance that it worked for you up until that point - and as a result of that *necessary* change, it now doesn't. -- Vince M Hudd Soft Rock Software - www.softrock.co.uk RISCOSitory - www.riscository.com From ardler at argonet.co.uk Fri Jul 27 09:29:18 2018 From: ardler at argonet.co.uk (Bob Ardler) Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2018 09:29:18 +0100 (BST) Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients In-Reply-To: <90b7e045-eab8-a98c-bdb9-1d023b9bc878@dotcodotukat.co.uk> References: <49511.91.85.218.30.1532602043.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <356715746.181632.1532606287339@email.1and1.co.uk> <49746.91.85.218.30.1532608457.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <90b7e045-eab8-a98c-bdb9-1d023b9bc878@dotcodotukat.co.uk> Message-ID: <49307.91.85.218.30.1532680158.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> Vince M Hudd wrote: Re: >> why "Reply:" >> has worked in the past, with no "Multiple recipients" message. > [snip] > > I suspect the change occurred when I altered the list settings to cope > with DMARC, a system designed to prevent email spoofing. There's a good > chance that it worked for you up until that point - and as a result of > that *necessary* change, it now doesn't. Ah, am slow & getting slower: hadn't connected the items: > Vince M Hudd > Soft Rock Software - www.softrock.co.uk > RISCOSitory - www.riscository.com > Hosted by RISCOSitory/Soft Rock Software > http://www.riscository.com/mailing-lists/ So the complexity of modern programming replaces the old American aintbrokedontfixit epigram with "fix-this-bust-that, cant-be-helped, thats-the-world-today". No, am definitely not complaining. Shall stick to webmail and replutonate only should non-list email require it. Thanks, Vince, for the explanation. From dave at triffid.co.uk Fri Jul 27 11:31:43 2018 From: dave at triffid.co.uk (Dave Symes) Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2018 11:31:43 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients In-Reply-To: <49307.91.85.218.30.1532680158.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> References: <49511.91.85.218.30.1532602043.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <356715746.181632.1532606287339@email.1and1.co.uk> <49746.91.85.218.30.1532608457.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <90b7e045-eab8-a98c-bdb9-1d023b9bc878@dotcodotukat.co.uk> <49307.91.85.218.30.1532680158.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> Message-ID: <571e20f213dave@triffid.co.uk> In article <49307.91.85.218.30.1532680158.squirrel at email.orpheusnet.co.uk>, Bob Ardler via Virtualacorn-list wrote: [Snippy] > No, am definitely not complaining. Shall stick to webmail > and replutonate only should non-list email require it. > Thanks, Vince, for the explanation. Obviously a given, each to their own preferences... But... I have found this thread to be somewhat interesting and a bit weird... Yes as has been noted WebMail has its uses, and even I use it now and again, but to use Webmail as the primary device for internet mail seems very masochistic... particularly when there are excellent and even adequate Mail client apps with far far better facilities than ever found in a WebMail thing... Pluto, MessengerPro, Thunderbird to name just a few. If I scratch my head... anymore, I'll cover my keyboard in dandruff. ;-) Dave -- Dave Triffid From atdotcodotuk at dotcodotukat.co.uk Fri Jul 27 10:29:37 2018 From: atdotcodotuk at dotcodotukat.co.uk (Vince M Hudd) Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2018 10:29:37 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients In-Reply-To: <49307.91.85.218.30.1532680158.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> References: <49511.91.85.218.30.1532602043.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <356715746.181632.1532606287339@email.1and1.co.uk> <49746.91.85.218.30.1532608457.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <90b7e045-eab8-a98c-bdb9-1d023b9bc878@dotcodotukat.co.uk> <49307.91.85.218.30.1532680158.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> Message-ID: <50e14c71-acaa-177f-4bee-4ccc0ee0595a@dotcodotukat.co.uk> On 27/07/18 09:29, Bob Ardler via Virtualacorn-list wrote: > Vince M Hudd wrote: [On why what used to work for Bob now doesn't - caused by the changes for DMARC] > So the complexity of modern programming replaces the old > American aintbrokedontfixit epigram with "fix-this-bust-that, > cant-be-helped, thats-the-world-today". Except in this case (and countless other mailing lists) it wasn't a simple as that. Things *were* broken, and needed to be fixed. The way email works was flawed: it left open a gaping wide hole that spammers and fraudsters could easily exploit. Steps are being taken to deal with that, such as DMARC. That in turn meant this list and all those others had to be changed, unless they wanted to be broken by DMARC. If this causes problems for you, it's because you are using a system for email that has functional limitations. Historically, webmail was designed simply as a web-based means to access a normal mailbox using IMAP - but being web-based it's exactly like just about every other web-based alternative to a proper desktop application: greatly limited by comparison, both in speed and in features. If you wish to continue using webmail, that's entirely up to you - but when it doesn't work or doesn't do what you expect, remember that it's *your choice* to use something that just isn't up to the job. -- Vince M Hudd - Soft Rock Software - www.softrock.co.uk RISCOSitory - www.riscository.com From steffen at huber-net.de Fri Jul 27 22:21:48 2018 From: steffen at huber-net.de (Steffen Huber) Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2018 23:21:48 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients In-Reply-To: <571e20f213dave@triffid.co.uk> References: <49511.91.85.218.30.1532602043.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <356715746.181632.1532606287339@email.1and1.co.uk> <49746.91.85.218.30.1532608457.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <90b7e045-eab8-a98c-bdb9-1d023b9bc878@dotcodotukat.co.uk> <49307.91.85.218.30.1532680158.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <571e20f213dave@triffid.co.uk> Message-ID: <330061398.68209.1532726509030@communicator.strato.de> > Dave Symes via Virtualacorn-list wrote: > > Yes as has been noted WebMail has its uses, and even I use it now and > again, but to use Webmail as the primary device for internet mail seems > very masochistic... particularly when there are excellent and even > adequate Mail client apps with far far better facilities than ever found > in a WebMail thing... > Pluto, MessengerPro, Thunderbird to name just a few. I fear that, for modern WebMail systems, it turns out the WebMail is at least as powerful as Pluto and MessengerPro. And IIRC, Pluto is still tied to POP3 which is a nightmare if used from more than one device. At least my WebMail application is able to properly support the various character encodings, something MessengerPro still refuses to do. Oh, and it can be accessed with strong encryption. Steffen -- Steffen Huber LambdaComm System ? Welcome to Trollinger Country steffen at huber-net.de Private homepage http://www.huber-net.de/ RISC OS Blog http://riscosblog.huber-net.de/ From Stuartlists at orpheusinternet.co.uk Fri Jul 27 23:21:43 2018 From: Stuartlists at orpheusinternet.co.uk (lists) Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2018 23:21:43 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients In-Reply-To: <330061398.68209.1532726509030@communicator.strato.de> References: <49511.91.85.218.30.1532602043.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <356715746.181632.1532606287339@email.1and1.co.uk> <49746.91.85.218.30.1532608457.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <90b7e045-eab8-a98c-bdb9-1d023b9bc878@dotcodotukat.co.uk> <49307.91.85.218.30.1532680158.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <571e20f213dave@triffid.co.uk> <330061398.68209.1532726509030@communicator.strato.de> Message-ID: <571e61f28aStuartlists@orpheusinternet.co.uk> In article <330061398.68209.1532726509030 at communicator.strato.de>, Steffen Huber via Virtualacorn-list wrote: > I fear that, for modern WebMail systems, it turns out the WebMail is > at least as powerful as Pluto and MessengerPro. And IIRC, Pluto is > still tied to POP3 which is a nightmare if used from more than one > device. !Pluto is a reading/sending application and is tied only to whatever application is used to actually fetch mail from a server, or despatch to a server. In my case I use !POPstar which, whilst a POP3 client, can be configured to leave mail on the server after a fetch if required. -- Stuart Winsor Tools With A Mission sending tools across the world http://www.twam.co.uk/ From cvjazz at waitrose.com Sat Jul 28 00:20:00 2018 From: cvjazz at waitrose.com (Chris Newman) Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2018 00:20:00 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients In-Reply-To: <571e61f28aStuartlists@orpheusinternet.co.uk> References: <49511.91.85.218.30.1532602043.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <356715746.181632.1532606287339@email.1and1.co.uk> <49746.91.85.218.30.1532608457.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <90b7e045-eab8-a98c-bdb9-1d023b9bc878@dotcodotukat.co.uk> <49307.91.85.218.30.1532680158.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <571e20f213dave@triffid.co.uk> <330061398.68209.1532726509030@communicator.strato.de> <571e61f28aStuartlists@orpheusinternet.co.uk> Message-ID: <571e6748d1cvjazz@waitrose.com> In article <571e61f28aStuartlists at orpheusinternet.co.uk>, lists via Virtualacorn-list wrote: > In article <330061398.68209.1532726509030 at communicator.strato.de>, > Steffen Huber via Virtualacorn-list > wrote: > > I fear that, for modern WebMail systems, it turns out the WebMail is > > at least as powerful as Pluto and MessengerPro. And IIRC, Pluto is > > still tied to POP3 which is a nightmare if used from more than one > > device. > !Pluto is a reading/sending application and is tied only to whatever > application is used to actually fetch mail from a server, or despatch to a > server. In my case I use !POPstar which, whilst a POP3 client, can be > configured to leave mail on the server after a fetch if required. Ditto with Netfetch/Hermes -- Chris From steffen at huber-net.de Sat Jul 28 01:50:09 2018 From: steffen at huber-net.de (Steffen Huber) Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2018 02:50:09 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients In-Reply-To: <571e61f28aStuartlists@orpheusinternet.co.uk> References: <49511.91.85.218.30.1532602043.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <356715746.181632.1532606287339@email.1and1.co.uk> <49746.91.85.218.30.1532608457.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <90b7e045-eab8-a98c-bdb9-1d023b9bc878@dotcodotukat.co.uk> <49307.91.85.218.30.1532680158.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <571e20f213dave@triffid.co.uk> <330061398.68209.1532726509030@communicator.strato.de> <571e61f28aStuartlists@orpheusinternet.co.uk> Message-ID: <900409356.68849.1532739009812@communicator.strato.de> > lists via Virtualacorn-list wrote: > > > In article <330061398.68209.1532726509030 at communicator.strato.de>, > Steffen Huber via Virtualacorn-list > wrote: > > I fear that, for modern WebMail systems, it turns out the WebMail is > > at least as powerful as Pluto and MessengerPro. And IIRC, Pluto is > > still tied to POP3 which is a nightmare if used from more than one > > device. > > !Pluto is a reading/sending application and is tied only to whatever > application is used to actually fetch mail from a server, or despatch to a > server. In my case I use !POPstar which, whilst a POP3 client, can be > configured to leave mail on the server after a fetch if required. "Leaving mail on the server" is just not enough. I need to sort mail into folders. I need to have the same read/unread state across all devices. If I delete a mail on one device, it should be also deleted on the server. In short: I need IMAP. Technically, in Pluto's current state of handling fetching/sending from/to the server, it is impossible to properly support IMAP. I guess it is unlikely that someone will implement it in the near future. I used Messenger Pro for quite a while, and mostly liked it (especially its mailing list support and the seamless integration of mail and news). However, it is firmly stuck in the 90s. While - in contrast to Pluto - it supports IMAP, it has reportedly big performance issues when dealing with big mailboxes (mine is over 10 GiB). And it has broken encoding handling (last time I looked). And, IIRC, the server connector still uses the completely outdated SecureSockets module. If NetSurf gains enough JavaScript capabilities, it will immediately become the premier RISC OS email solution. This is really sad considering that both Messenger Pro and Pluto were ahead of the PC competition in the early days. Steffen -- Steffen Huber LambdaComm System ? Welcome to Trollinger Country steffen at huber-net.de Private homepage http://www.huber-net.de/ RISC OS Blog http://riscosblog.huber-net.de/ From jn.ml.vac.83 at wingsandbeaks.org.uk Sat Jul 28 09:40:08 2018 From: jn.ml.vac.83 at wingsandbeaks.org.uk (Jeremy Nicoll - ml VA) Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2018 09:40:08 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients In-Reply-To: <330061398.68209.1532726509030@communicator.strato.de> References: <49511.91.85.218.30.1532602043.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <356715746.181632.1532606287339@email.1and1.co.uk> <49746.91.85.218.30.1532608457.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <90b7e045-eab8-a98c-bdb9-1d023b9bc878@dotcodotukat.co.uk> <49307.91.85.218.30.1532680158.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <571e20f213dave@triffid.co.uk> <330061398.68209.1532726509030@communicator.strato.de> Message-ID: <721bddb15162eace05dac8e051abd052@wingsandbeaks.org.uk> On 2018-07-27 22:21, Steffen Huber via Virtualacorn-list wrote: >> Dave Symes via Virtualacorn-list >> wrote: >> >> Yes as has been noted WebMail has its uses, and even I use it now and >> again, but to use Webmail as the primary device for internet mail >> seems >> very masochistic... particularly when there are excellent and even >> adequate Mail client apps with far far better facilities than ever >> found >> in a WebMail thing... >> Pluto, MessengerPro, Thunderbird to name just a few. > > I fear that, for modern WebMail systems, it turns out the WebMail is > at least as powerful as Pluto and MessengerPro... Yes. I use two WebmMail systems - RoundCube (which is open source and many mail providers use), & fastmail.com's own/proprietary system. The latter looks nice and is very fast (you can easily forget you're using a web-based thing) and its searching and filtering capabilities are just as good as a local client. The things I miss in both of these are: - you can't edit the contents of a received mail (eg to change the subject line to something meaningful, or adjust the threading) - that they don't also handle nntp news. -- Jeremy Nicoll - my opinions are my own From atdotcodotuk at dotcodotukat.co.uk Sat Jul 28 12:04:32 2018 From: atdotcodotuk at dotcodotukat.co.uk (Vince M Hudd) Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2018 12:04:32 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Webmail vs a dedicated email client + POP3 vs IMAP (Was: Multiple recipients) In-Reply-To: <571e61f28aStuartlists@orpheusinternet.co.uk> References: <49511.91.85.218.30.1532602043.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <356715746.181632.1532606287339@email.1and1.co.uk> <49746.91.85.218.30.1532608457.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <90b7e045-eab8-a98c-bdb9-1d023b9bc878@dotcodotukat.co.uk> <49307.91.85.218.30.1532680158.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <571e20f213dave@triffid.co.uk> <330061398.68209.1532726509030@communicator.strato.de> <571e61f28aStuartlists@orpheusinternet.co.uk> Message-ID: <972f14de-7eaa-3ab1-5c98-ef404b697d0a@dotcodotukat.co.uk> On 27/07/18 23:21, lists via Virtualacorn-list wrote: > In article <330061398.68209.1532726509030 at communicator.strato.de>, > Steffen Huber via Virtualacorn-list > wrote: >> I fear that, for modern WebMail systems, it turns out the WebMail is >> at least as powerful as Pluto and MessengerPro. While this is almost certainly true in some cases - particularly where the webmail system is one of the primary products to draw people in to the provider's services, such as Google and Gmail[1]. However, the webmail offerings I've seen provided by ISPs to their customers tend to be somewhat more basic. I believe it is something more along those lines that Bob is using. [1] I have a gmail address which only sees very limited use, and I access it from my desktop using IMAP. I don't see the webby interface, so I don't really know what it's like - but despite my general dislike of Google, their developers are pretty damned good at what they do, so I imagine it's a pretty good system. >> And IIRC, Pluto is still tied to POP3 which is a nightmare if used from more than one >> device. > !Pluto is a reading/sending application and is tied only to whatever > application is used to actually fetch mail from a server, or despatch to a > server. That pretty much ties it to POP3 for receiving emails, as Steffen said. For it to be able to handle IMAP, it would pretty much have to speak directly to the mail server for almost every action it carries out on the contents of the mailbox. > In my case I use !POPstar which, whilst a POP3 client, can be > configured to leave mail on the server after a fetch if required. Before I switched to using IMAP I did similar, but it was always a flawed approach. -- Vince M Hudd - Soft Rock Software - www.softrock.co.uk RISCOSitory - www.riscository.com From druck at druck.org.uk Sun Jul 29 09:31:21 2018 From: druck at druck.org.uk (David J. Ruck) Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2018 09:31:21 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients In-Reply-To: <900409356.68849.1532739009812@communicator.strato.de> References: <49511.91.85.218.30.1532602043.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <356715746.181632.1532606287339@email.1and1.co.uk> <49746.91.85.218.30.1532608457.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <90b7e045-eab8-a98c-bdb9-1d023b9bc878@dotcodotukat.co.uk> <49307.91.85.218.30.1532680158.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <571e20f213dave@triffid.co.uk> <330061398.68209.1532726509030@communicator.strato.de> <571e61f28aStuartlists@orpheusinternet.co.uk> <900409356.68849.1532739009812@communicator.strato.de> Message-ID: On 28/07/2018 01:50, Steffen Huber via Virtualacorn-list wrote: > "Leaving mail on the server" is just not enough. I need to sort > mail into folders. I need to have the same read/unread state > across all devices. If I delete a mail on one device, it should be > also deleted on the server. In short: I need IMAP. Technically, > in Pluto's current state of handling fetching/sending from/to the > server, it is impossible to properly support IMAP. I guess it is > unlikely that someone will implement it in the near future. > > I used Messenger Pro for quite a while, and mostly liked it > (especially its mailing list support and the seamless integration > of mail and news). However, it is firmly stuck in the 90s. > While - in contrast to Pluto - it supports IMAP, it has reportedly > big performance issues when dealing with big mailboxes (mine is > over 10 GiB). And it has broken encoding handling (last time > I looked). And, IIRC, the server connector still uses the > completely outdated SecureSockets module. The obvious solution would be to set up a Linux Raspberry Pi as a local mail server, which downloads email from your ISP and shares it via IMAP to all clients. As it's local SecureSockets isn't needed from RISC OS, but a VPN can be set up to allow external secure access from your mobile devices. As this is a VA list, there may be a PC IMAP sever which could do the same, but I haven't looked. > If NetSurf gains enough JavaScript capabilities, it will > immediately become the premier RISC OS email solution. This > is really sad considering that both Messenger Pro and > Pluto were ahead of the PC competition in the early days. I've still not come across any webmail service which is a patch on a dedicated email program. Cheers ---David -- Email: druck at druck.org.uk Phone: +44-(0)7974 108301 From steffen at huber-net.de Tue Jul 31 15:49:44 2018 From: steffen at huber-net.de (Steffen Huber) Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2018 16:49:44 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients In-Reply-To: References: <49511.91.85.218.30.1532602043.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <356715746.181632.1532606287339@email.1and1.co.uk> <49746.91.85.218.30.1532608457.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <90b7e045-eab8-a98c-bdb9-1d023b9bc878@dotcodotukat.co.uk> <49307.91.85.218.30.1532680158.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <571e20f213dave@triffid.co.uk> <330061398.68209.1532726509030@communicator.strato.de> <571e61f28aStuartlists@orpheusinternet.co.uk> <900409356.68849.1532739009812@communicator.strato.de> Message-ID: <1840513606.181910.1533048584132@communicator.strato.de> > "David J. Ruck via Virtualacorn-list" wrote [snip] > The obvious solution would be to set up a Linux Raspberry Pi as a local > mail server, which downloads email from your ISP and shares it via IMAP > to all clients. As it's local SecureSockets isn't needed from RISC OS, > but a VPN can be set up to allow external secure access from your mobile > devices. > > As this is a VA list, there may be a PC IMAP sever which could do the > same, but I haven't looked. Unfortunately, this "obvious solution" only solves - despite the significant install and management overhead it creates - one single problem: Messenger Pro's insecureness. It does not magically allow Pluto to sensibly communicate with IMAP, and it does not solve the slowness of Messenger Pro handling large IMAP mailboxes, and it does not solve Messenger Pro's broken encoding handling. There are a few Qt-based open source email clients, maybe it would be worth improving the Qt port to make those really usable. Or maybe add secure IMAP and SMTP to TapirMail. > > If NetSurf gains enough JavaScript capabilities, it will > > immediately become the premier RISC OS email solution. This > > is really sad considering that both Messenger Pro and > > Pluto were ahead of the PC competition in the early days. > > I've still not come across any webmail service which is a patch on a > dedicated email program. What "dedicated email program" do you (or anyone reading this!) favour? I am in a seemingly constant search for something sensible. Things I tried include Messenger Pro (Windows), Opera Mail, Foxmail, Mailbird, eM Client, Pegasus Mail, Claws, Thunderbird and Columba. Claws is my favourite, but still far from ideal. Oh, and if you know a good client for Android... Steffen -- Steffen Huber LambdaComm System ? Welcome to Trollinger Country steffen at huber-net.de Private homepage http://www.huber-net.de/ RISC OS Blog http://riscosblog.huber-net.de/ From dave at triffid.co.uk Mon Jul 2 17:46:26 2018 From: dave at triffid.co.uk (Dave Symes) Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2018 17:46:26 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Boot problem In-Reply-To: <5710543d34cvjazz@waitrose.com> References: <570f6dd94acvjazz@waitrose.com> <20180628215623.C36B421D7A@outbound-queue-adx-1.mail.thdo.gradwell.net> <5710543d34cvjazz@waitrose.com> Message-ID: <5711635a57dave@triffid.co.uk> In article <5710543d34cvjazz at waitrose.com>, Chris Newman via Virtualacorn-list wrote: [Snippy] > It took a while to get A Round Tuiit as I have been taking advantage of > the hot weather & doing some repairs to our ancient conservatory wood > work. Dig out a bit, fill a bit, paint a bit. Then there's the ages you > have to wait for things to set & dry. What fun. I had to replace some > ancient hinges. The originals were packed out with pieces cut from a > Wills Woodbine fag packet (anyone remember them). Chiselit, Bodgit & > Leggit had obviously cut the holes too big. Modern hinges are slightly > bigger than the originals & the screw holes don't line up. More filling > & sanding. Hey ho! Reading the above I have to asume you are a mere DIYer!... Dave -- Dave Triffid From cvjazz at waitrose.com Mon Jul 2 22:02:05 2018 From: cvjazz at waitrose.com (Chris Newman) Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2018 22:02:05 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Boot problem In-Reply-To: <5711635a57dave@triffid.co.uk> References: <570f6dd94acvjazz@waitrose.com> <20180628215623.C36B421D7A@outbound-queue-adx-1.mail.thdo.gradwell.net> <5710543d34cvjazz@waitrose.com> <5711635a57dave@triffid.co.uk> Message-ID: <57117ac18dcvjazz@waitrose.com> In article <5711635a57dave at triffid.co.uk>, Dave Symes via Virtualacorn-list wrote: > In article <5710543d34cvjazz at waitrose.com>, > Chris Newman via Virtualacorn-list > wrote: > [Snippy] > > It took a while to get A Round Tuiit as I have been taking advantage of > > the hot weather & doing some repairs to our ancient conservatory wood > > work. Dig out a bit, fill a bit, paint a bit. Then there's the ages you > > have to wait for things to set & dry. What fun. I had to replace some > > ancient hinges. The originals were packed out with pieces cut from a > > Wills Woodbine fag packet (anyone remember them). Chiselit, Bodgit & > > Leggit had obviously cut the holes too big. Modern hinges are slightly > > bigger than the originals & the screw holes don't line up. More filling > > & sanding. Hey ho! > Reading the above I have to asume you are a mere DIYer!... Mere being the operative word, methinks. -- Chris From dave at triffid.co.uk Tue Jul 3 07:54:55 2018 From: dave at triffid.co.uk (Dave Symes) Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2018 07:54:55 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Boot problem In-Reply-To: <57117ac18dcvjazz@waitrose.com> References: <570f6dd94acvjazz@waitrose.com> <20180628215623.C36B421D7A@outbound-queue-adx-1.mail.thdo.gradwell.net> <5710543d34cvjazz@waitrose.com> <5711635a57dave@triffid.co.uk> <57117ac18dcvjazz@waitrose.com> Message-ID: <5711b108a1dave@triffid.co.uk> In article <57117ac18dcvjazz at waitrose.com>, Chris Newman via Virtualacorn-list wrote: > In article <5711635a57dave at triffid.co.uk>, > Dave Symes via Virtualacorn-list > wrote: > > In article <5710543d34cvjazz at waitrose.com>, > > Chris Newman via Virtualacorn-list > > wrote: > > [Snippy] > > > It took a while to get A Round Tuiit as I have been taking advantage > > > of the hot weather & doing some repairs to our ancient conservatory > > > wood work. Dig out a bit, fill a bit, paint a bit. Then there's the > > > ages you have to wait for things to set & dry. What fun. I had to > > > replace some ancient hinges. The originals were packed out with > > > pieces cut from a Wills Woodbine fag packet (anyone remember them). > > > Chiselit, Bodgit & Leggit had obviously cut the holes too big. > > > Modern hinges are slightly bigger than the originals & the screw > > > holes don't line up. More filling & sanding. Hey ho! > > Reading the above I have to asume you are a mere DIYer!... > Mere being the operative word, methinks. > Chris ;-) Small apology, didn't intend it to appear so pejorative... (Maybe) ;-) Having been a Building construction and maintenance pro for over 50 years, and 'wunce' upon a time the Grumpmaster, I sometimes still bristle at DIYer comments. :-) (My bad). Dave FWIW. Back in the days, an old fag packet whatever brand was a most useful thing to have in your tool box. 1) To contain the fags, then when empty... 2) To use for hinge and lock shims, etc. 3) To write material(x) lists and dims on. 4) If the fags packet had a loose foil liner... And... If some careless (person) blew a fuse (No one carried spares) the foil liner could be rolled around the blown fuse cartridge and put in to temporarily replace the fuse... Or twist rolled to put in a fuse box. Yes I know, but I'm commenting on long ago... Later when I ran my own business I did carry a pot of spare fuses and fuse wires. (x) That's material in the sense of timber, cement, ironmongery etc, and not a bolt of cloth. :-) Oh yes, and even back then we had boot problems. D. -- Dave Triffid From atdotcodotuk at dotcodotukat.co.uk Tue Jul 3 10:16:21 2018 From: atdotcodotuk at dotcodotukat.co.uk (Vince M Hudd) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2018 10:16:21 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients Message-ID: I've just spotted and approved a couple of messages that were held for moderation by the mailing list server. Both were dated 28th June, so they've been waiting around five days for me to notice. The reason they were held is because the system is set up to not allow messages with multiple recipients (so more than one address in the 'To' line, or a combination of 'To' and 'CC') Please try to avoid doing this. If you really must send your message to the list and somewhere else, use BCC for the other address(es). -- Vince M Hudd - Soft Rock Software - www.softrock.co.uk RISCOSitory - www.riscository.com From pnyoung at ormail.co.uk Tue Jul 3 10:51:39 2018 From: pnyoung at ormail.co.uk (Peter Young) Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2018 10:51:39 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 3 Jul 2018 Vince M Hudd via Virtualacorn-list wrote: > I've just spotted and approved a couple of messages that were held for > moderation by the mailing list server. Both were dated 28th June, so > they've been waiting around five days for me to notice. > The reason they were held is because the system is set up to not allow > messages with multiple recipients (so more than one address in the 'To' > line, or a combination of 'To' and 'CC') > Please try to avoid doing this. If you really must send your message to > the list and somewhere else, use BCC for the other address(es). Or use ImpEmail to compose a MailMerge message. http://sinenomine.co.uk/software/ bcc is OK up to a point. However, I send emails to 45 members of a walking group. If I use bcc to do this I find that all messages sent to gmail users bounce. Presumably, if the words "think" and "gmail" go in the same sentence, gmail thinks that anything sent to so many recipients must be spam. ImpEmail, however, produces 45 separate emails. Best wishes, Peter. -- Peter Young (zfc Pt) and family Prestbury, Cheltenham, Glos. GL52, England http://pnyoung.orpheusweb.co.uk pnyoung at ormail.co.uk From atdotcodotuk at dotcodotukat.co.uk Tue Jul 3 11:28:40 2018 From: atdotcodotuk at dotcodotukat.co.uk (Vince M Hudd) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2018 11:28:40 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4317d660-3335-d75c-984a-e88cbd452c71@dotcodotukat.co.uk> On 03/07/18 10:51, Peter Young via Virtualacorn-list wrote: >> Please try to avoid doing this. If you really must send your message to >> the list and somewhere else, use BCC for the other address(es). > Or use ImpEmail to compose a MailMerge message. > http://sinenomine.co.uk/software/ > bcc is OK up to a point. However, I send emails to 45 members of a walking > group. [snip problem doing that and ImpEmail as the solution] That's a slightly different issue, though - ImpEmail is for sending messages to a set of addresses in a database; it's a one-way thing. I'm talking about people replying to messages on this *discussion* list and including another address on the reply. -- Vince M Hudd - Soft Rock Software - www.softrock.co.uk RISCOSitory - www.riscository.com From vatory at abbeypress.co.uk Tue Jul 3 14:19:49 2018 From: vatory at abbeypress.co.uk (Jim Nagel) Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2018 14:19:49 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Vince M Hudd via Virtualacorn-list wrote on 3 Jul: > ... the system is set up to not allow messages with multiple > recipients (so more than one address in the 'To' line, or a > combination of 'To' and 'CC') > Please try to avoid doing this. If you really must send your message to > the list and somewhere else, use BCC for the other address(es). In MPro, one of the options when reading a mailinglist message is to "reply to group and include copy to sender" (Ctrl-click on the button). The result is TO the list and CC the individual. Would it be easy to set up the Riscository system to disallow messages with *more than 2* addresses total in TO and CC? -- Jim Nagel www.archivemag.co.uk From bbailey at argonet.co.uk Tue Jul 3 18:01:16 2018 From: bbailey at argonet.co.uk (Brian) Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2018 18:01:16 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] VRPC on Linux Message-ID: <5711e88bf4bbailey@argonet.co.uk> Could some kind soul bring me up to date re VRPC on Linux. Pros and cons - perhaps. Presently running VRPC RISCOS 4.02 on Win 7, mostly very satisfied, but wish to be forearmed re possible eventuality of being forced onto Win 10, sometime. Brian From druck at druck.org.uk Tue Jul 3 20:33:29 2018 From: druck at druck.org.uk (David J. Ruck) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2018 20:33:29 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] VRPC on Linux In-Reply-To: <5711e88bf4bbailey@argonet.co.uk> References: <5711e88bf4bbailey@argonet.co.uk> Message-ID: On 03/07/2018 18:01, Brian via Virtualacorn-list wrote: > Could some kind soul bring me up to date re VRPC on Linux. Pros and cons - > perhaps. VRPC isn't available for Linux, try asking about RPCemu on the newsgroups. ---druck -- Email: druck at druck.org.uk Phone: +44-(0)7974 108301 From atdotcodotuk at dotcodotukat.co.uk Wed Jul 4 09:10:33 2018 From: atdotcodotuk at dotcodotukat.co.uk (Vince M Hudd) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2018 09:10:33 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <94a09475-d3e1-def0-1459-6e422f287395@dotcodotukat.co.uk> On 03/07/18 14:19, Jim Nagel via Virtualacorn-list wrote: > Vince M Hudd via Virtualacorn-list wrote on 3 Jul: >> ... the system is set up to not allow messages with multiple >> recipients > In MPro, one of the options when reading a mailinglist message is to > "reply to group and include copy to sender" (Ctrl-click on the > button). The result is TO the list and CC the individual. What a strange option. What good reason is there to - in effect - send someone two copies of your reply? > Would it be easy to set up the Riscository system to disallow messages > with *more than 2* addresses total in TO and CC? Without checking, yes, I believe I can set a threshold number. I'm not convinced I should, though. I think it might be better if Messenger Pro was fixed so that it didn't have such a rude* button, unless I can be convinced it is a sensible option, and that increasing the list threshold is equally sensible. * Speaking as a subscriber to the mailing list, I would consider it rude of someone to send me a second copy of a reply I'm going to receive anyway. -- Vince M Hudd - Soft Rock Software - www.softrock.co.uk RISCOSitory - www.riscository.com From j.mccartney at blueyonder.co.uk Wed Jul 4 10:34:51 2018 From: j.mccartney at blueyonder.co.uk (John McCartney) Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2018 10:34:51 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5712438220j.mccartney@blueyonder.co.uk> In article , Vince M Hudd via Virtualacorn-list wrote: > I've just spotted and approved a couple of messages that > were held for moderation by the mailing list server. > Both were dated 28th June, so they've been waiting > around five days for me to notice. My reply was thus affected. However, Chris saw my reply straight away but I didn't see it until yesterday. John -- John McCartney j.mccartney at blueyonder.co.uk From jn.ml.vac.83 at wingsandbeaks.org.uk Wed Jul 4 10:39:28 2018 From: jn.ml.vac.83 at wingsandbeaks.org.uk (Jeremy Nicoll - ml VA) Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2018 10:39:28 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients In-Reply-To: <94a09475-d3e1-def0-1459-6e422f287395@dotcodotukat.co.uk> References: <94a09475-d3e1-def0-1459-6e422f287395@dotcodotukat.co.uk> Message-ID: <7d9830f569bd92f07fa0da8d6a2b2118@wingsandbeaks.org.uk> On 2018-07-04 09:10, Vince M Hudd via Virtualacorn-list wrote: > On 03/07/18 14:19, Jim Nagel via Virtualacorn-list wrote: >> Vince M Hudd via Virtualacorn-list wrote on 3 Jul: > >>> ... the system is set up to not allow messages with multiple >>> recipients > >> In MPro, one of the options when reading a mailinglist message is to >> "reply to group and include copy to sender" (Ctrl-click on the >> button). The result is TO the list and CC the individual. > > What a strange option. What good reason is there to - in effect - send > someone two copies of your reply? It's a good question, and personally I agree with you(*). But your email to this list, which I'm replying to, has 'too many' headers: From Vince via VA list Sender VA list To VA list Copy Vince Reply-To VA list and in the webamil system I'm using now, 'Reply' and 'Reply All' buttons are available, with different effects - Reply is back to the list and ReplyAll is list and you. You can see how many users would think ReplyAll made sense. * some email systems won't in fact deliver two copies - they de-dup on the mail provider's server if both copies would have ended up in the same 'mailbox' (that being a concept whose implementation varies between systems, I've found). So if someone sends me a private copy of the reply to a list mail quite I often I only receive that and not the public copy as well and that means that because of no list-server-type headers in the private copy, it's not filtered properly when it arrives here. The de-dup logic happens if for example I have what the mail provider regards as aliases and eg a personal email address me at mydomain and a list address mylistsubs at mydomain are both routed to a server mailbox eg mybigmailbox at mydomain and it's that mailbox I collect mail from. It also means that if one has two family members both subscribed to a single mail list, but their mails handled via provider aliases and routed to a single family mailbox, only one person will ever see each message. -- Jeremy Nicoll - my opinions are my own From atdotcodotuk at dotcodotukat.co.uk Wed Jul 4 14:15:41 2018 From: atdotcodotuk at dotcodotukat.co.uk (Vince M Hudd) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2018 14:15:41 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients In-Reply-To: <7d9830f569bd92f07fa0da8d6a2b2118@wingsandbeaks.org.uk> References: <94a09475-d3e1-def0-1459-6e422f287395@dotcodotukat.co.uk> <7d9830f569bd92f07fa0da8d6a2b2118@wingsandbeaks.org.uk> Message-ID: <624ee5b0-a288-0708-ac23-465528324bbd@dotcodotukat.co.uk> On 04/07/2018 10:39, Jeremy Nicoll - ml VA via Virtualacorn-list wrote: > On 2018-07-04 09:10, Vince M Hudd via Virtualacorn-list wrote: >> On 03/07/18 14:19, Jim Nagel via Virtualacorn-list wrote: [The list holds messages with >1 recipient for moderation] [Various snips] >>> In MPro, one of the options when reading a mailinglist message is to >>> "reply to group and include copy to sender" (Ctrl-click on the >>> button).? The result is TO the list and CC the individual. When I read that quickly earlier and replied, I didn't spot the need to ctrl-click the button; I read it as having a separate button to do it. But the need to ctrl-click means that while Messenger Pro has this - to me odd - option, it does require extra effort on the part of the sender to use it. (It appears Thunderbird also has this option, via a drop down menu on the 'Reply List' button - which also requires extra effort to use.) So the obvious solution is for people not to put in that extra effort, and just use the mailing list properly. 8) >> What a strange option. What good reason is there to - in effect - send >> someone two copies of your reply? > It's a good question, and personally I agree with you(*). > But your email to this list, which I'm replying to, has 'too many' > headers: > ? From?????? Vince via VA list > ? Sender???? VA list > ? To???????? VA list > ? Copy?????? Vince > ? Reply-To?? VA list Without spending time looking into what Mailman does, and instead going from memory for some things and guessing for others: From is "munged" to show the list address with the sender's name so that the from being the original sender's address doesn't upset some mail servers. This is the main DMARC solution. Sender could be removed, but the recommended setting is to include it. I think it essentially overwrites any existing sender in the message (if there is one) so that any bounces come to the list server instead of the original sender. I don't think there's a setting for the To line. The CC, I'm *guessing*, is used as a way to include the actual sender's address in the headers in such a way that it would be useful. For example if you specifically wanted to send me an off-list reply. The Reply-To I could change - IIRC the current setting isn't the recommended one, but I set it like that deliberately. Originally this was for old software like ArgoNET's PostyUser, which has no understanding of mailing lists - and I later discovered that Outlook Express also needed the same setting when investigating a problem someone had reported. Thinking about it, the change for DMARC - which basically puts the list address in the From line - should mean the Reply-To setting can be changed to what it should be, so I'll go through all the RISCOSitory lists and make that change. (I have to log in to this list specifically to send my own messages[1] so I'll change this list straight away. The others I'll do tonight.) [1] I put myself on moderation a while back because a spammer hit on the successful trick of spamming one of the mailing lists with my address in the From line. (I think it was this list, actually.) > * some email systems won't in fact deliver two copies - they de-dup > ? on the mail provider's server if both copies would have ended up > ? in the same 'mailbox' (that being a concept whose implementation > ? varies between systems, I've found). Some email clients have a similar setting. So if a copy is CC'd to the previous poster: * They'll see two copies if their server/client doesn't have the option - which I'd find annoying. * They won't if their server/client does have that option - which means sending the two copies is a pointless thing to do anyway! -- Vince M Hudd Soft Rock Software - www.softrock.co.uk RISCOSitory - www.riscository.com From atdotcodotuk at dotcodotukat.co.uk Wed Jul 4 14:25:37 2018 From: atdotcodotuk at dotcodotukat.co.uk (Vince M Hudd) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2018 14:25:37 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients In-Reply-To: <5712438220j.mccartney@blueyonder.co.uk> References: <5712438220j.mccartney@blueyonder.co.uk> Message-ID: On 04/07/2018 10:34, John McCartney via Virtualacorn-list wrote: > Vince M Hudd via Virtualacorn-list > wrote: >> I've just spotted and approved a couple of messages that >> were held for moderation by the mailing list server. >> Both were dated 28th June, so they've been waiting >> around five days for me to notice. > My reply was thus affected. However, Chris saw my reply > straight away but I didn't see it until yesterday. Yes - that's because the CC doesn't go via the mailing list; that's an email being sent straight from you to the recipient. Had you not done that, the list server would have just passed your message on to the list normally, and you would *both* have seen your reply straight away. (Ish, subject to when/how you fetch mail, etc). -- Vince M Hudd Soft Rock Software - www.softrock.co.uk RISCOSitory - www.riscository.com From atdotcodotuk at dotcodotukat.co.uk Wed Jul 4 14:38:41 2018 From: atdotcodotuk at dotcodotukat.co.uk (Vince M Hudd) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2018 14:38:41 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients In-Reply-To: <624ee5b0-a288-0708-ac23-465528324bbd@dotcodotukat.co.uk> References: <94a09475-d3e1-def0-1459-6e422f287395@dotcodotukat.co.uk> <7d9830f569bd92f07fa0da8d6a2b2118@wingsandbeaks.org.uk> <624ee5b0-a288-0708-ac23-465528324bbd@dotcodotukat.co.uk> Message-ID: <066fd8cb-e2ff-ce52-d17f-2488f04bb362@dotcodotukat.co.uk> On 04/07/2018 14:15, Vince M Hudd via Virtualacorn-list wrote: > The CC, I'm *guessing*, is used as a way to include the actual sender's > address in the headers in such a way that it would be useful. For > example if you specifically wanted to send me an off-list reply. > The Reply-To I could change [...] The default/recommended setting is for it to be set to Poster; now the Reply-to line contains the original poster's email address, and the CC line is no longer present. This is consistent with my guess about that line. I note that going to the extra effort in Thunderbird to "Reply All" no longer adds a CC line - it was replying to all the recipients of the original message, and I wonder if Messenger Pro will behave similarly? If so, the option makes sense now - the inclusion of the CC in the headers (a side effect of the Reply-To setting, which as I said was to be helpful to software from the Dark Ages) was confusing the issue. -- Vince M Hudd Soft Rock Software - www.softrock.co.uk RISCOSitory - www.riscository.com From j.mccartney at blueyonder.co.uk Wed Jul 4 20:08:34 2018 From: j.mccartney at blueyonder.co.uk (John McCartney) Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2018 20:08:34 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients In-Reply-To: References: <5712438220j.mccartney@blueyonder.co.uk> Message-ID: <57127809e3j.mccartney@blueyonder.co.uk> In article , Vince M Hudd via Virtualacorn-list wrote: > > My reply was thus affected. However, Chris saw my reply > > straight away but I didn't see it until yesterday. > Yes - that's because the CC doesn't go via the mailing > list; that's an email being sent straight from you to > the recipient. > Had you not done that, the list server would have just > passed your message on to the list normally, and you > would *both* have seen your reply straight away. (Ish, > subject to when/how you fetch mail, etc). Obvious when it's explained. Thanks Vince, John -- John McCartney j.mccartney at blueyonder.co.uk From vatory at abbeypress.co.uk Wed Jul 11 16:03:07 2018 From: vatory at abbeypress.co.uk (Jim Nagel) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2018 16:03:07 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients In-Reply-To: <624ee5b0-a288-0708-ac23-465528324bbd@dotcodotukat.co.uk> References: <94a09475-d3e1-def0-1459-6e422f287395@dotcodotukat.co.uk> <7d9830f569bd92f07fa0da8d6a2b2118@wingsandbeaks.org.uk> <624ee5b0-a288-0708-ac23-465528324bbd@dotcodotukat.co.uk> Message-ID: Vince M Hudd via Virtualacorn-list wrote on 4 Jul: > On 04/07/2018 10:39, Jeremy Nicoll - ml VA via Virtualacorn-list wrote: >> On 2018-07-04 09:10, Vince M Hudd via Virtualacorn-list wrote: >>> On 03/07/18 14:19, Jim Nagel via Virtualacorn-list wrote: > [Various snips] >>>> In MPro, one of the options when reading a mailinglist message is to >>>> "reply to group and include copy to sender" (Ctrl-click on the >>>> button).? The result is TO the list and CC the individual. ... >>> What a strange option. What good reason is there to - in effect - send >>> someone two copies of your reply? >> It's a good question, and personally I agree with you(*). The only situation where I have ever used MPro's ctrl-Reply option is where I know the list moderator* sends stuff only once a day or at even longer intervals but the OP needs a reply quickly. (* not this list, of course!) Maybe it'd be better if the email client sent the copy as BCC rather than CC, but that's outside Vince's ctrl. It might in fact be an advantage in that the individual's address would not be broadcast with potential for spambots to see it. -- Jim Nagel www.archivemag.co.uk From ardler at argonet.co.uk Thu Jul 12 10:28:15 2018 From: ardler at argonet.co.uk (Bob Ardler) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2018 10:28:15 +0100 (BST) Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients Message-ID: <49458.91.85.218.30.1531387695.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> Jim Nagel, Vince M Hudd and others wrote: [...] MPro [...] What is MPro? (Those of us foolish enough to gain an Msc in CompSci in 1972 know less about computing than today's average 6-year-old. And what is the technical term for the progressive outofdatery equivalent to built-in obsolescence?) Bob From p.sprangers at sprie.nl Thu Jul 12 11:09:59 2018 From: p.sprangers at sprie.nl (Paul Sprangers) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2018 12:09:59 +0200 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients In-Reply-To: <49458.91.85.218.30.1531387695.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> References: <49458.91.85.218.30.1531387695.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> Message-ID: <9f55d50b-8c51-ea56-eda4-14be0e31aaf0@sprie.nl> > Those of us foolish enough to gain an Msc in CompSci in 1972 know less > about computing than today's average 6-year-old I don't know how foolish a Msc in CompSci in 1972 is, but I think that the computing skills of 6-year-olds is largely overestimated. Yes, they know exactly which buttons need to be pressed to make their favourite game appear, but I wonder if that should be entitled as 'computer skill'. Even most of the *16*-year-olds, who spend more time on their phones (and computers) than me in my lifetime, are completely helpless if something goes wrong. But I digress... Kind regards, Paul Sprangers From vatory at abbeypress.co.uk Thu Jul 12 12:19:57 2018 From: vatory at abbeypress.co.uk (Jim Nagel) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2018 12:19:57 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients In-Reply-To: <49458.91.85.218.30.1531387695.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> References: <49458.91.85.218.30.1531387695.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> Message-ID: <66d26b1657.jim@6.abbeypress.net> Bob Ardler via Virtualacorn-list wrote on 12 Jul: > Jim Nagel, Vince M Hudd and others wrote: >> [...] MPro [...] > What is MPro? Sorry: it's one of my own pet peeves that people write abbreviations at first mention, forgetting that some not-yet-familiar readers might appreciate a spelling-out. MPro is Messenger Pro, the email and news client application sold by R-Comp. I think there's a version for Windows too (someone will correct me if I'm wrong). The older version was called Messenger. The original authors are Mark Sawle and Tom Hughes. The other main news and email client app for RiscOS is Pluto. -- Jim Nagel www.archivemag.co.uk From j.mccartney at blueyonder.co.uk Thu Jul 12 15:55:03 2018 From: j.mccartney at blueyonder.co.uk (John McCartney) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2018 15:55:03 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients In-Reply-To: <66d26b1657.jim@6.abbeypress.net> References: <49458.91.85.218.30.1531387695.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <66d26b1657.jim@6.abbeypress.net> Message-ID: <57167f8409j.mccartney@blueyonder.co.uk> In article <66d26b1657.jim at 6.abbeypress.net>, Jim Nagel via Virtualacorn-list wrote: > Bob Ardler via Virtualacorn-list wrote on 12 Jul: > > Jim Nagel, Vince M Hudd and others wrote: > >> [...] MPro [...] > > What is MPro? > Sorry: it's one of my own pet peeves that people write > abbreviations at first mention, forgetting that some > not-yet-familiar readers might appreciate a spelling-out. This is exactly what is done (in what used to be called) Service Writing (SW). SW is the way written communications are made (or should be made) in the armed forces and civil service. When I was in the RAF, all that one needed to know about SW was contained in a Joint Service Publication (JSP) entitled JSP 101. Things move on and the topic is now known as Defence Writing. Note that, having mentioned it in full, I haven't put its abbreviation in parentheses. This is because I'm not going to mention it again and the abbreviation would be redundant. John -- John McCartney j.mccartney at blueyonder.co.uk From ardler at argonet.co.uk Fri Jul 13 09:57:36 2018 From: ardler at argonet.co.uk (Bob Ardler) Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2018 09:57:36 +0100 (BST) Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients In-Reply-To: <66d26b1657.jim@6.abbeypress.net> References: <49458.91.85.218.30.1531387695.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <66d26b1657.jim@6.abbeypress.net> Message-ID: <62160.91.85.218.30.1531472256.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> Jim Nagel wrote: re: >> What is MPro? > [...] > MPro is Messenger Pro, the email and news client application sold by R-Comp. I think there's a version for Windows too (someone will correct me if I'm wrong). Ah, bell should have rung. > The older version was called Messenger. The original authors are Mark Sawle and Tom Hughes. > The other main news and email client app for RiscOS is Pluto. Plot thickens. !NetFetch and !Messenger sit where Andrew's team put them on the pinboard, but to email we just NetSurf webmail, log in & do it all on Netsurf. (NetFetch pops up on entering RiscOS from Windows, offering stuff which would require study to use.) One misses Pluto's style and versatility, but learning how to use it with webmail seems too much bother. As to multiple recipients, our local environment discussion group with 32ish members put 32ish addressees in Cc, not Bcc. Most of them also quote in full (including each Cc) every previous message on the topic. Could be that this apparent goofitude is caused by people using smart phones on the move being unable to do the fiddly bits. Could the messages Vince spotted have come from phones? -- Bob From j.mccartney at blueyonder.co.uk Fri Jul 13 11:36:42 2018 From: j.mccartney at blueyonder.co.uk (John McCartney) Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2018 11:36:42 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients In-Reply-To: <62160.91.85.218.30.1531472256.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> References: <49458.91.85.218.30.1531387695.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <66d26b1657.jim@6.abbeypress.net> <62160.91.85.218.30.1531472256.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> Message-ID: <5716ebb2d5j.mccartney@blueyonder.co.uk> In article <62160.91.85.218.30.1531472256.squirrel at email.orpheusnet.co.uk>, Bob Ardler via Virtualacorn-list wrote: > Jim Nagel wrote: > re: > >> What is MPro? > > [...] > > MPro is Messenger Pro, the email and news client > > application sold by > R-Comp. I think there's a version for Windows too > (someone will correct me if I'm wrong). > Ah, bell should have rung. > > The older version was called Messenger. The original > > authors are Mark Sawle and Tom Hughes. > > The other main news and email client app for RiscOS is > > Pluto. > Plot thickens. !NetFetch and !Messenger sit where > Andrew's team put them on the pinboard, but to email we > just NetSurf webmail, log in & do it all on Netsurf. That'll be why your e-mails look a mess when viewed (in my case) on Pluto. The threading is broken and quoting is discontinuous. In order to compose this reply, I've had to extensively edit your last email to make it more easily readable. > (NetFetch pops up on entering RiscOS from Windows, > offering stuff which would require study to use.) One > misses Pluto's style and versatility, but learning how to > use it with webmail seems too much bother. > As to multiple recipients, our local environment > discussion group with 32ish members put 32ish addressees > in Cc, not Bcc. Most of them also quote in full > (including each Cc) every previous message on the topic. > Could be that this apparent goofitude is caused by people > using smart phones on the move being unable to do the > fiddly bits. Your use of NetSurf and webmail doesn't seem to be able to cope with the fiddly bits either. It would help somewhat if you separated paragraphs with a double return instead of just indenting the first line. I've had to do that before getting Pluto to reformat so that your last two paragraphs don't end up as one. > Could the messages Vince spotted have come from phones? Mine was created in Pluto on an ARMX6. John -- John McCartney j.mccartney at blueyonder.co.uk From vatory at abbeypress.co.uk Fri Jul 13 13:26:11 2018 From: vatory at abbeypress.co.uk (Jim Nagel) Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2018 13:26:11 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] / how to switch Quoting off? In-Reply-To: <62160.91.85.218.30.1531472256.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> References: <49458.91.85.218.30.1531387695.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <66d26b1657.jim@6.abbeypress.net> <62160.91.85.218.30.1531472256.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> Message-ID: <01b9f51657.jim@6.abbeypress.net> Bob Ardler via Virtualacorn-list wrote on 13 Jul: > ... Most of ... our local environment discussion group with 32ish > members ... quote in full (including each Cc) every previous message > on the topic. Could be that this apparent goofitude is caused by > people using smartphones on the move being unable to do the fiddly > bits. I would think that whatever email software they are using, on smartphone or desktop or wherever, would have something in Settings (or Configure or similar name) where they could switch quoting off. Otherwise, I guess the problem with hoi polloi is just that they are too lazy to use their Delete key before they hit Send. (Pet peeve.) -- Jim Nagel www.archivemag.co.uk From Stuartlists at orpheusinternet.co.uk Fri Jul 13 18:27:38 2018 From: Stuartlists at orpheusinternet.co.uk (lists) Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2018 17:27:38 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients In-Reply-To: <62160.91.85.218.30.1531472256.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> References: <49458.91.85.218.30.1531387695.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <66d26b1657.jim@6.abbeypress.net> <62160.91.85.218.30.1531472256.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> Message-ID: <571711523dStuartlists@orpheusinternet.co.uk> In article <62160.91.85.218.30.1531472256.squirrel at email.orpheusnet.co.uk>, Bob Ardler via Virtualacorn-list wrote: > One misses Pluto's style and versatility, So why aren't you using it instead of trying to use webmail? -- Stuart Winsor Tools With A Mission sending tools across the world http://www.twam.co.uk/ From pnyoung at ormail.co.uk Fri Jul 13 17:47:33 2018 From: pnyoung at ormail.co.uk (Peter Young) Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2018 17:47:33 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients In-Reply-To: <571711523dStuartlists@orpheusinternet.co.uk> References: <49458.91.85.218.30.1531387695.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <66d26b1657.jim@6.abbeypress.net> <62160.91.85.218.30.1531472256.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <571711523dStuartlists@orpheusinternet.co.uk> Message-ID: On 13 Jul 2018 lists via Virtualacorn-list wrote: > In article <62160.91.85.218.30.1531472256.squirrel at email.orpheusnet.co.uk>, > Bob Ardler via Virtualacorn-list > wrote: >> One misses Pluto's style and versatility, > So why aren't you using it instead of trying to use webmail? +1. Webmail is the invention from Hell. Best wishes, Peter. -- Peter Young (zfc Au) and family Prestbury, Cheltenham, Glos. GL52, England http://pnyoung.orpheusweb.co.uk pnyoung at ormail.co.uk From dave at triffid.co.uk Fri Jul 13 19:12:57 2018 From: dave at triffid.co.uk (Dave Symes) Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2018 19:12:57 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients In-Reply-To: References: <49458.91.85.218.30.1531387695.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <66d26b1657.jim@6.abbeypress.net> <62160.91.85.218.30.1531472256.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <571711523dStuartlists@orpheusinternet.co.uk> Message-ID: <5717157835dave@triffid.co.uk> In article , Peter Young via Virtualacorn-list wrote: > On 13 Jul 2018 lists via Virtualacorn-list > wrote: > > In article <62160.91.85.218.30.1531472256.squirrel at email.orpheusnet.co.uk>, > > Bob Ardler via Virtualacorn-list > > wrote: > >> One misses Pluto's style and versatility, > > So why aren't you using it instead of trying to use webmail? > +1. Webmail is the invention from Hell. > Best wishes, > Peter. I can think of a number of other things that are inventions from hell... On balance, while Webmail is crude it has its uses. Dave -- Dave Triffid From ardler at argonet.co.uk Fri Jul 20 15:48:41 2018 From: ardler at argonet.co.uk (Bob Ardler) Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2018 15:48:41 +0100 (BST) Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients Message-ID: <53160.91.85.218.30.1532098121.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> John McCartney wrote: re: >> !NetFetch and !Messenger sit where >> Andrew's team put them on the pinboard, but to email we >> just NetSurf webmail, log in & do it all on Netsurf. > That'll be why your e-mails look a mess when viewed (in my > case) on Pluto. The threading is broken and quoting is > discontinuous. In order to compose this reply, I've had to > extensively edit your last email to make it more easily > readable. Well, same here with many others' emails. (Broken-threading and continuous-quoting are terms beyond my ken.) >> [...] group with 32ish members put 32ish addressees >> in Cc, not Bcc. Most of them also quote in full >> (including each Cc) every previous message on the topic. >> Could be [...] caused by [...] smart phones on the move >> being unable to do the fiddly bits. > Your use of NetSurf and webmail doesn't seem to be able to > cope with the fiddly bits either. It would help somewhat if > you separated paragraphs with a double return instead of > just indenting the first line. I've had to do that before > getting Pluto to reformat so that your last two paragraphs > don't end up as one. OK, indent bad, double return good now added to goodmanners. Yonks ago Paul Vigay said no more Pluto, webmail now, use your browser. Hence the NetSurfing, as the RiscOS FireFox doesn't work here and Webster pages have weird layout. Andrew made NetFetch pop up on RiscOS entry with multiple options needing study & practice, so am sticking with the simple way. Didn't realize it rattles Pluto. Er, typed this days ago & clicked Save Draft instead of Send. Dementia rules. Bob From styleguide at avisoft.f9.co.uk Fri Jul 20 17:14:45 2018 From: styleguide at avisoft.f9.co.uk (Martin) Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2018 17:14:45 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients In-Reply-To: <53160.91.85.218.30.1532098121.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> References: <53160.91.85.218.30.1532098121.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> Message-ID: <571aa57fd4styleguide@avisoft.f9.co.uk> On 20 Jul in article <53160.91.85.218.30.1532098121.squirrel at email.orpheusnet.co.uk>, Bob Ardler via Virtualacorn-list wrote: > John McCartney wrote: > re: > >> !NetFetch and !Messenger sit where > >> Andrew's team put them on the pinboard, but to email we > >> just NetSurf webmail, log in & do it all on Netsurf. > > That'll be why your e-mails look a mess when viewed (in my > > case) on Pluto. The threading is broken and quoting is > > discontinuous. In order to compose this reply, I've had to > > extensively edit your last email to make it more easily > > readable. > Well, same here with many others' emails. (Broken-threading > and continuous-quoting are terms beyond my ken.) Broken Threads are when messages which are replies do not contain in their header lines (not normally seen) a 'References:' header containing a reference to the original message. This means that mail readers which can display message 'threads' properly cannot do so, and the thread is 'broken'. Then the only way to group messages together is by the subject. Strangely, of your 3 replies in this thread, one was referenced correctly, the other two were not. Continuous Quoting probably refers to the nasty habit of some mail programs to send chunks of text which are way way over the standard 70 or so line length limit. When quoted, there is just one quote indicator (eg '>') at the start of many lines of displayed text, instead of at the start of every displayed line. > > Your use of NetSurf and webmail doesn't seem to be able to > > cope with the fiddly bits either. It would help somewhat if > > you separated paragraphs with a double return instead of > > just indenting the first line. I've had to do that before > > getting Pluto to reformat so that your last two paragraphs > > don't end up as one. > OK, indent bad, double return good now added to goodmanners. > Yonks ago Paul Vigay said no more Pluto, webmail now, use > your browser. Hence the NetSurfing, as the RiscOS FireFox > doesn't work here and Webster pages have weird layout. > Andrew made NetFetch pop up on RiscOS entry with multiple > options needing study & practice, so am sticking with the > simple way. Didn't realize it rattles Pluto. Pluto will happily display most non-standard messages without being rattled, but they can be more difficult to read and reply to than standard ones. In an earlier post, you wrote: > One misses Pluto's style and versatility, but learning how to use > it with webmail seems too much bother. If you miss Pluto, then it can easily be used on any RISC OS machine. You do not use it 'with webmail'. The fetching and sending of emails for Pluto over the Internet is handled by a Transport Application as always - eg AntiSpam, POPstar, Hermes (probably in your NetFetch). For further details of Pluto, see www.avisoft.f9.co.uk/Pluto for infomation and a contact email address. IMHO when away from your RISC OS machine but with access to a browser, Webmail has its uses, but I personally would not like to use it all the time. Martin -- Martin Avison using a British Iyonix running RISC OS 5 and the Pluto mail and newsreader From ardler at argonet.co.uk Sun Jul 22 11:04:01 2018 From: ardler at argonet.co.uk (Bob Ardler) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2018 11:04:01 +0100 (BST) Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients threadcut In-Reply-To: <571aa57fd4styleguide@avisoft.f9.co.uk> References: <53160.91.85.218.30.1532098121.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <571aa57fd4styleguide@avisoft.f9.co.uk> Message-ID: <50053.91.85.218.30.1532253841.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> Martin Avison wrote: Re: >> [...] Broken-threading & continuous-quoting are beyond my ken. > Broken Threads are when messages which are replies do not contain in > their header lines (not normally seen) a 'References:' header > containing a reference to the original message. This means that mail > readers which can display message 'threads' properly cannot do so, > and the thread is 'broken'. Then the only way to group messages > together is by the subject. Strangely, of your 3 replies in this > thread, one was referenced correctly, the other two were not. > > Continuous Quoting probably refers to the nasty habit of some mail > programs to send chunks of text which are way way over the standard > 70 or so line length limit. When quoted, there is just one quote > indicator (eg '>') at the start of many lines of displayed text, > instead of at the start of every displayed line. > Pluto will happily display most non-standard messages without being > rattled, but they can be more difficult to read and reply to than > standard ones. > > In an earlier post, you wrote: >> One misses Pluto's style and versatility, but learning how to use >> it with webmail seems too much bother. > > If you miss Pluto, then it can easily be used on any RISC OS machine. > You do not use it 'with webmail'. > The fetching and sending of emails for Pluto over the Internet is > handled by a Transport Application as always - eg AntiSpam, POPstar, > Hermes (probably in your NetFetch). > > For further details of Pluto, see www.avisoft.f9.co.uk/Pluto for > infomation and a contact email address. > > IMHO when away from your RISC OS machine but with access to a > browser, Webmail has its uses, but I personally would not like to use > it all the time. Thanks, Martin, for several clarifications. Can now see, with apologies, that my questions have cut Vince M Hudd's thread with digression. Have googled & learnt you've taken over Pluto & his e-creation from Jonathan Duddington -- a vital job which gave huge benefit to a brave partially-sighted woman in Greenwich. Sadly, the message from Paul Vigay (or successor?) and argonet was quite clear: webmail from now on. In any case, filing by hand & sorting by sender (or e-list and subject) has become routine. So it's a sad goodbye to splendid Pluto & Jonathan (couldn't find what's become of him on Google). Good luck with your splendid work, Bob From atdotcodotuk at dotcodotukat.co.uk Sun Jul 22 11:22:45 2018 From: atdotcodotuk at dotcodotukat.co.uk (Vince M Hudd) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2018 11:22:45 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients threadcut In-Reply-To: <50053.91.85.218.30.1532253841.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> References: <53160.91.85.218.30.1532098121.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <571aa57fd4styleguide@avisoft.f9.co.uk> <50053.91.85.218.30.1532253841.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> Message-ID: <7e4cd432-da5c-4acb-30e4-6b78a5959d5a@dotcodotukat.co.uk> On 22/07/18 11:04, Bob Ardler via Virtualacorn-list wrote: > Sadly, the message from Paul Vigay (or successor?) and argonet was > quite clear: webmail from now on. In all honesty, I'd be absolutely amazed if Paul said anything of the sort - and I can't see Richard Brown (who now runs Orpheus) suggesting something like that, either. Orpheus has always included mailboxes accessed in the normal way as part of the service. I strongly suspect that you've misunderstood something that one of them has said. -- Vince M Hudd - Soft Rock Software - www.softrock.co.uk RISCOSitory - www.riscository.com From druck at druck.org.uk Sun Jul 22 12:09:51 2018 From: druck at druck.org.uk (David J. Ruck) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2018 12:09:51 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients threadcut In-Reply-To: <50053.91.85.218.30.1532253841.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> References: <53160.91.85.218.30.1532098121.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <571aa57fd4styleguide@avisoft.f9.co.uk> <50053.91.85.218.30.1532253841.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> Message-ID: <27b2c074-49f1-7b8f-1d4b-4d1cc77cda5d@druck.org.uk> On 22/07/2018 11:04, Bob Ardler via Virtualacorn-list wrote: > Sadly, the message from Paul > Vigay (or successor?) and argonet was quite clear: webmail from now > on. In any case, filing by hand & sorting by sender (or e-list and > subject) has become routine. So it's a sad goodbye to splendid Pluto > & Jonathan (couldn't find what's become of him on Google). Well there are other ISPs which still provide email, but if you are determined to stay with Orpheus, there are other options. Some webmail providers also provide POP and IMAP access, such as gmail. There are also a number of free and subscription email services which you can use from any ISP. ---druck -- Email: druck at druck.org.uk Phone: +44-(0)7974 108301 From Stuartlists at orpheusinternet.co.uk Sun Jul 22 21:34:28 2018 From: Stuartlists at orpheusinternet.co.uk (lists) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2018 21:34:28 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients threadcut In-Reply-To: <27b2c074-49f1-7b8f-1d4b-4d1cc77cda5d@druck.org.uk> References: <53160.91.85.218.30.1532098121.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <571aa57fd4styleguide@avisoft.f9.co.uk> <50053.91.85.218.30.1532253841.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <27b2c074-49f1-7b8f-1d4b-4d1cc77cda5d@druck.org.uk> Message-ID: <571bc4f2e2Stuartlists@orpheusinternet.co.uk> In article <27b2c074-49f1-7b8f-1d4b-4d1cc77cda5d at druck.org.uk>, David J. Ruck via Virtualacorn-list wrote: > Well there are other ISPs which still provide email, but if you are > determined to stay with Orpheus, Orpheus do still provide email and as far as I am aware there is no plan to drop it. Of three aliases I have, one is an Orpheus domain account, one is an Argonet domain account and the third a zfc domain account. I think I am probably one of only a couple of people with the latter and I have paid the domain renewal fees for the last couple of times (a trifilling amount really) One only has to check out http://www.orpheusinternet.co.uk/email/ Orpheus also still provide full, unrestricted, newsgroup access via Gignews > Some webmail providers also provide POP and IMAP access, such as gmail. GMAIL!!! for goodness sake! -- Stuart Winsor Tools With A Mission sending tools across the world http://www.twam.co.uk/ From Stuartlists at orpheusinternet.co.uk Sun Jul 22 21:16:08 2018 From: Stuartlists at orpheusinternet.co.uk (lists) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2018 21:16:08 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients threadcut In-Reply-To: <7e4cd432-da5c-4acb-30e4-6b78a5959d5a@dotcodotukat.co.uk> References: <53160.91.85.218.30.1532098121.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <571aa57fd4styleguide@avisoft.f9.co.uk> <50053.91.85.218.30.1532253841.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <7e4cd432-da5c-4acb-30e4-6b78a5959d5a@dotcodotukat.co.uk> Message-ID: <571bc34567Stuartlists@orpheusinternet.co.uk> In article <7e4cd432-da5c-4acb-30e4-6b78a5959d5a at dotcodotukat.co.uk>, Vince M Hudd via Virtualacorn-list wrote: > On 22/07/18 11:04, Bob Ardler via Virtualacorn-list wrote: > > Sadly, the message from Paul Vigay (or successor?) and argonet was > > quite clear: webmail from now on. > In all honesty, I'd be absolutely amazed if Paul said anything of the > sort - So would I! > and I can't see Richard Brown (who now runs Orpheus) suggesting > something like that, either. Orpheus has always included mailboxes > accessed in the normal way as part of the service. When I moved back from Pipex to Orpheus, (I'd been with Argonet right up to latter days, when it was overrun with spam and jumped ship) Paul seemed quite happy to provide three separate user IDs on one account at no extra cost, so that different members of the family could fetch their mail independently. He implied that email accounts were "no big deal" and quite trivial to set up and manage. > I strongly suspect that you've misunderstood something that one of them > has said. I would second that. -- Stuart Winsor Tools With A Mission sending tools across the world http://www.twam.co.uk/ From Stuartlists at orpheusinternet.co.uk Sun Jul 22 21:39:59 2018 From: Stuartlists at orpheusinternet.co.uk (lists) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2018 21:39:59 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients In-Reply-To: <571aa57fd4styleguide@avisoft.f9.co.uk> References: <53160.91.85.218.30.1532098121.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <571aa57fd4styleguide@avisoft.f9.co.uk> Message-ID: <571bc5745cStuartlists@orpheusinternet.co.uk> In article <571aa57fd4styleguide at avisoft.f9.co.uk>, Martin via Virtualacorn-list wrote: > IMHO when away from your RISC OS machine but with access to a > browser, Webmail has its uses, but I personally would not like to use > it all the time. My opinion too. It's useful when I am away on holiday - !NetSurf on VA on a little Dell Lattitude 2110 but I only use it to check personal emails, mailing lists can wait till I get back home. -- Stuart Winsor Tools With A Mission sending tools across the world http://www.twam.co.uk/ From pnyoung at ormail.co.uk Sun Jul 22 21:48:57 2018 From: pnyoung at ormail.co.uk (Peter Young) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2018 21:48:57 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients In-Reply-To: <571bc5745cStuartlists@orpheusinternet.co.uk> References: <53160.91.85.218.30.1532098121.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <571aa57fd4styleguide@avisoft.f9.co.uk> <571bc5745cStuartlists@orpheusinternet.co.uk> Message-ID: <7046c61b57.pnyoung@pnyoung.ormail.co.uk> On 22 Jul 2018 lists via Virtualacorn-list wrote: > In article <571aa57fd4styleguide at avisoft.f9.co.uk>, > Martin via Virtualacorn-list > wrote: >> IMHO when away from your RISC OS machine but with access to a >> browser, Webmail has its uses, but I personally would not like to use >> it all the time. > My opinion too. It's useful when I am away on holiday - !NetSurf on VA on > a little Dell Lattitude 2110 but I only use it to check personal emails, > mailing lists can wait till I get back home. I have used Orpheus webmail when away, but it totally fouls up any formatting in a reply. What I do now is to use NetFetch and Messenger Pro while I'm away?on VRPC, with "delete all fetched mails" turned off, and bcc any replies I make to my own address. When I'm back I can save these messages as .eml files and import them into my MPro on this VRPC using ShareFS. Problem solved, go thou and do likewise! Best wishes, Peter. -- Peter Young (zfc Au) and family Prestbury, Cheltenham, Glos. GL52, England http://pnyoung.orpheusweb.co.uk pnyoung at ormail.co.uk From Stuartlists at orpheusinternet.co.uk Sun Jul 22 22:15:25 2018 From: Stuartlists at orpheusinternet.co.uk (lists) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2018 22:15:25 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients In-Reply-To: <7046c61b57.pnyoung@pnyoung.ormail.co.uk> References: <53160.91.85.218.30.1532098121.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <571aa57fd4styleguide@avisoft.f9.co.uk> <571bc5745cStuartlists@orpheusinternet.co.uk> <7046c61b57.pnyoung@pnyoung.ormail.co.uk> Message-ID: <571bc8b2a2Stuartlists@orpheusinternet.co.uk> In article <7046c61b57.pnyoung at pnyoung.ormail.co.uk>, Peter Young via Virtualacorn-list wrote: > I have used Orpheus webmail when away, but it totally fouls up any > formatting in a reply. What I do now is to use NetFetch and Messenger > Pro while I'm away#on VRPC, with "delete all fetched mails" turned off, > and bcc any replies I make to my own address. When I'm back I can save > these messages as .eml files and import them into my MPro on this VRPC > using ShareFS. Problem solved, go thou and do likewise! Yes. Whilst I check my emails I don't reply unless it is urgent that I do so. They are all then dealt with when I get back home, to !POPstar and !Pluto. -- Stuart Winsor Tools With A Mission sending tools across the world http://www.twam.co.uk/ From cvjazz at waitrose.com Sun Jul 22 23:34:29 2018 From: cvjazz at waitrose.com (Chris Newman) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2018 23:34:29 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients threadcut In-Reply-To: <7e4cd432-da5c-4acb-30e4-6b78a5959d5a@dotcodotukat.co.uk> References: <53160.91.85.218.30.1532098121.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <571aa57fd4styleguide@avisoft.f9.co.uk> <50053.91.85.218.30.1532253841.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <7e4cd432-da5c-4acb-30e4-6b78a5959d5a@dotcodotukat.co.uk> Message-ID: <571bcfeff9cvjazz@waitrose.com> In article <7e4cd432-da5c-4acb-30e4-6b78a5959d5a at dotcodotukat.co.uk>, Vince M Hudd via Virtualacorn-list wrote: > On 22/07/18 11:04, Bob Ardler via Virtualacorn-list wrote: > > Sadly, the message from Paul Vigay (or successor?) and argonet was > > quite clear: webmail from now on. > In all honesty, I'd be absolutely amazed if Paul said anything of the > sort - and I can't see Richard Brown (who now runs Orpheus) suggesting > something like that, either. Orpheus has always included mailboxes > accessed in the normal way as part of the service. > I strongly suspect that you've misunderstood something that one of them > has said. I concur. Knowing Paul Vigay well here in Portsmouth he was fanatical about cyber safety & always preferred downloading his mail to his machine(s) rather than using the web. I use Pluto on a RiscPC at home & Virtual Acorn when I'm away & that includes being on the other side of the world. When in foreign parts I log into webmail once so they know where I genuinely am & stop pestering me about safety then it's back to Pluto & Netfetch. I only check my accounts on the web now & again to check they haven't put something I really needed in the junk folder. I use PoP3 & set Netfetch to delete messages from the server after downloading. If you want a belt & braces approach you can leave them on the web to be reviewed later or downloaded to another device. What's not to like. -- Chris From ardler at argonet.co.uk Mon Jul 23 12:09:26 2018 From: ardler at argonet.co.uk (Bob Ardler) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2018 12:09:26 +0100 (BST) Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients threadcut Message-ID: <49366.91.85.218.30.1532344166.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> Clarification: Vince M Hudd wrote, re my claim that Paul or Richard or others said webmail from now on: > In all honesty, I'd be absolutely amazed if Paul said anything of the > sort - and I can't see Richard Brown (who now runs Orpheus) suggesting > something like that, either. Orpheus has always included mailboxes > accessed in the normal way as part of the service. > I strongly suspect that you've misunderstood something that one of > them has said. Dementiated memory prevents correct dates. Roughly: by late 80s was using a now-extinct browser &c on the Archimedes. Pluto arrived and helped greatly. Switch to 1st Iyonix was ok. On updated Iyonix email failed, Castle inaccessible by phone or snailmail. Phoned Argonet, and their solution was something unknown to me -- webmail, which they explained in detail. Am now used to webmail and shall stick to it. The intelligent notes from VMH, Druck, SW, PY & CN indicate knowledge & skill beyond this declining brain -- especially where RTFM is needed. (Those who know enough to write manuals seldom know what the dontknows need to know.) So it's webmail here, but long may Jonathan's and Martin's work flourish. (What did become of Jonathan?) Bob -- Islington North From Stuartlists at orpheusinternet.co.uk Mon Jul 23 14:29:40 2018 From: Stuartlists at orpheusinternet.co.uk (lists) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2018 14:29:40 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients threadcut In-Reply-To: <49366.91.85.218.30.1532344166.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> References: <49366.91.85.218.30.1532344166.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> Message-ID: <571c21e48aStuartlists@orpheusinternet.co.uk> In article <49366.91.85.218.30.1532344166.squirrel at email.orpheusnet.co.uk>, Bob Ardler via Virtualacorn-list wrote: > Am now used to webmail and shall stick to it. The intelligent notes > from VMH, Druck, SW, PY & CN indicate knowledge & skill beyond this > declining brain -- especially where RTFM is needed. (Those who know > enough to write manuals seldom know what the dontknows need to know.) > So it's webmail here, but long may Jonathan's and Martin's work > flourish. (What did become of Jonathan?) Jonathan continued with his principle interest, which was in producing speech on the computer, for some time after passing !Pluto on for further development to Martin. http://espeak.sourceforge.net/ The documentation for !Pluto is, with all due respect to Jonathan, a lttle rudimentary, consisting, as it does, of a number of text files. However Brian Bailey, a user, produced a much better, "proper" manual in !Ovation format and I have a draft copy here. -- Stuart Winsor Tools With A Mission sending tools across the world http://www.twam.co.uk/ From styleguide at avisoft.f9.co.uk Mon Jul 23 15:04:49 2018 From: styleguide at avisoft.f9.co.uk (Martin) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2018 15:04:49 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients threadcut In-Reply-To: <571c21e48aStuartlists@orpheusinternet.co.uk> References: <49366.91.85.218.30.1532344166.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <571c21e48aStuartlists@orpheusinternet.co.uk> Message-ID: <571c251c93styleguide@avisoft.f9.co.uk> On 23 Jul in article <571c21e48aStuartlists at orpheusinternet.co.uk>, lists via Virtualacorn-list wrote: > The documentation for !Pluto is, with all due respect to Jonathan, > a lttle rudimentary, consisting, as it does, of a number of text > files. The original documentation by Jonathan was indeed a number of text files. However, many years ago I took those and added vast amounts of information culled from internet postings and created a StrongHelp manual. Since I have had access to the Pluto sources it has had further updates, and from v3.06 it has been included with Pluto and is on the iconbar menu. The original text documents are no longer distributed. I know StrongHelp is not everyone's favourite, but it is small, fast, and enables one or many pages to be displayed, and instant searches to be done. It is the only complete and up-to-date documentation that I am aware of, and has a full alphabetic Index and a structured Contents. If I had time, I would complete my StrongHelp conversion facility: Anyone got any spare? I would also add that the Pluto developments I have done have only been possible because of the changes that Robert Sprowson has done, and the help in understanding C that he has given me. Martin -- Martin Avison using a British Iyonix running RISC OS 5 and the Pluto mail and newsreader From atdotcodotuk at dotcodotukat.co.uk Mon Jul 23 15:43:50 2018 From: atdotcodotuk at dotcodotukat.co.uk (Vince M Hudd) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2018 15:43:50 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients threadcut In-Reply-To: <571c251c93styleguide@avisoft.f9.co.uk> References: <49366.91.85.218.30.1532344166.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <571c21e48aStuartlists@orpheusinternet.co.uk> <571c251c93styleguide@avisoft.f9.co.uk> Message-ID: <790d3fdf-1314-89a3-84dd-d157262603f7@dotcodotukat.co.uk> On 23/07/2018 15:04, Martin via Virtualacorn-list wrote: [Pluto's documentation] This really belongs on the Pluto list - so I'll post it here and then re-post it there. I suggest anyone with any interest in Pluto subscribes and continues this discussion there: plutousers at yahoogroups.com (yuck!) > I know StrongHelp is not everyone's favourite, but it is small, fast, > and enables one or many pages to be displayed, and instant searches > to be done. It is the only complete and up-to-date documentation that > I am aware of, and has a full alphabetic Index and a structured > Contents. If I had time, I would complete my StrongHelp conversion > facility: Anyone got any spare? I'm not entirely familiar with the StrongHelp file format[1], but isn't it just a sort of mark up? If so, I wonder if something like WebChange can be used to convert individual pages to something like XML? I suggest XML because there does exist one and a half tools for converting from XML to other formats. One is Steve Fryatt's, and (IIRC) can convert from XML to various formats - including StrongHelp. The other is a half (well, tenth) written one of my own (which may or may not become part of WebChange, or a separate thing in its own right) which I aim to make more customisable, so it can theoretically go from XML to anything at all that it's possible to write a config/rules file for. (I'm holding off writing it fully until the WebChange manual is written - which I'm slowly working on in XML. Because of that time stuff you mentioned.) [1] I'm a StrongHelp loather, so I never use it for my own documentation[2], and only ever look at SH documentation for other stuff as a last resort [2] Shut up Ron, if you're reading this list. ;) -- Vince M Hudd Soft Rock Software - www.softrock.co.uk RISCOSitory - www.riscository.com From j.mccartney at blueyonder.co.uk Mon Jul 23 17:07:00 2018 From: j.mccartney at blueyonder.co.uk (John McCartney) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2018 17:07:00 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients In-Reply-To: <53160.91.85.218.30.1532098121.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> References: <53160.91.85.218.30.1532098121.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> Message-ID: <571c304c70j.mccartney@blueyonder.co.uk> In article <53160.91.85.218.30.1532098121.squirrel at email.orpheusnet.co.uk>, Bob Ardler via Virtualacorn-list wrote: > John McCartney wrote: re: > >> !NetFetch and !Messenger sit where Andrew's team put > >> them on the pinboard, but to email we just NetSurf > >> webmail, log in & do it all on Netsurf. > > That'll be why your e-mails look a mess when viewed (in > > my case) on Pluto. The threading is broken and quoting > > is discontinuous. In order to compose this reply, I've > > had to extensively edit your last email to make it more > > easily readable. > Well, same here with many others' emails. > (Broken-threading and continuous-quoting are terms beyond > my ken.) Ok. If this list accepts attachments, I'll take a snapshot of what your e-mail looks like in Pluto so that you can see the problems. Does the list accept attachments? > >> [...] group with 32ish members put 32ish addressees in > >> Cc, not Bcc. Most of them also quote in full > >> (including each Cc) every previous message on the > >> topic. Could be [...] caused by [...] smart phones on > >> the move being unable to do the fiddly bits. > > Your use of NetSurf and webmail doesn't seem to be able > > to cope with the fiddly bits either. It would help > > somewhat if you separated paragraphs with a double > > return instead of just indenting the first line. I've > > had to do that before getting Pluto to reformat so that > > your last two paragraphs don't end up as one. > OK, indent bad, double return good now added to > goodmanners. Splendid! Old dogs, new tricks eh, what? > Yonks ago Paul Vigay said no more Pluto, webmail now, use > your browser. Despite his many good points, Paul was (in my opinion) quite wrong in this matter. I only use web-mail in extremis. > Hence the NetSurfing, as the RiscOS FireFox doesn't work > here and Webster pages have weird layout. Andrew made > NetFetch pop up on RiscOS entry with multiple options > needing study & practice, so am sticking with the simple > way. Didn't realize it rattles Pluto. > Er, typed this days ago & clicked Save Draft instead of > Send. Dementia rules. I would have answered straight away but my Virgin Media Hub suffered a terminal decline last Tuesday and, due to lack of communication by VM, has only just been replaced this afternoon. John -- John McCartney j.mccartney at blueyonder.co.uk From atdotcodotuk at dotcodotukat.co.uk Mon Jul 23 19:25:19 2018 From: atdotcodotuk at dotcodotukat.co.uk (Vince M Hudd) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2018 19:25:19 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients In-Reply-To: <571c304c70j.mccartney@blueyonder.co.uk> References: <53160.91.85.218.30.1532098121.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <571c304c70j.mccartney@blueyonder.co.uk> Message-ID: <63547f05-d6dc-1964-4985-eb3413348596@dotcodotukat.co.uk> On 23/07/18 17:07, John McCartney via Virtualacorn-list wrote: > In article > <53160.91.85.218.30.1532098121.squirrel at email.orpheusnet.co.uk>, > Bob Ardler via Virtualacorn-list [...] >> Well, same here with many others' emails. >> (Broken-threading and continuous-quoting are terms beyond >> my ken.) > Ok. If this list accepts attachments, I'll take a snapshot > of what your e-mail looks like in Pluto so that you can > see the problems. > Does the list accept attachments? I can't remember the exact settings I've given it, but the answer should be no. And if I don't have it set correctly, and attachments can be posted, the sender will end up on my naughty list. So they'll be subject to a good telling off, and put on moderation - with the latter meaning their messages are likely to be delayed until I notice and approve them. i.e. don't post attachments. Better to bung an image up on some webspace somewhere and just post the link to it. There's also an upper size limit on messages - probably around 10kB. -- Vince M Hudd - Soft Rock Software - www.softrock.co.uk RISCOSitory - www.riscository.com From j.mccartney at blueyonder.co.uk Tue Jul 24 12:34:29 2018 From: j.mccartney at blueyonder.co.uk (John McCartney) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2018 12:34:29 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients In-Reply-To: <63547f05-d6dc-1964-4985-eb3413348596@dotcodotukat.co.uk> References: <53160.91.85.218.30.1532098121.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <571c304c70j.mccartney@blueyonder.co.uk> <63547f05-d6dc-1964-4985-eb3413348596@dotcodotukat.co.uk> Message-ID: <571c9b2f1dj.mccartney@blueyonder.co.uk> In article <63547f05-d6dc-1964-4985-eb3413348596 at dotcodotukat.co.uk>, Vince M Hudd via Virtualacorn-list wrote: > > Does the list accept attachments? > I can't remember the exact settings I've given it, but > the answer should be no. Ok. I can live with that. > And if I don't have it set correctly, and attachments can > be posted, the sender will end up on my naughty list. Oh, nooooo! The very thought of being on anyone's naughty list fills me with dread... :-) > So they'll be subject to a good telling off, and put on > moderation - with the latter meaning their messages are > likely to be delayed until I notice and approve them. > i.e. don't post attachments. Better to bung an image up > on some webspace somewhere and just post the link to it. I've just picked up a personal e-mail from Bob but am preoccupied with landscapers who have started today. I'll put images on Dropbox later today. John -- John McCartney j.mccartney at blueyonder.co.uk From dave at triffid.co.uk Tue Jul 24 19:53:30 2018 From: dave at triffid.co.uk (Dave Symes) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2018 19:53:30 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Shutdown problem VRPC and Windows Message-ID: <571cc36083dave@triffid.co.uk> I'm wondering if anyone else here has encountered this problem. Fay's computer is running Win 7 Pro and VRPC-Adjust SA and for the most part no particular problems. However occasionally on shutting down VRPC using either the Switcher Menu "Shutdown" or Ctrl+Shift+F12 VRPC shuts down, then the monitor screen goes black and that's it, as it seems to be frozen in that state. No mouse pointer, no keyboard action from a three fingered salute... Nada. Press and hold the front power switch on the computer to force a power off is the only exit from this freeze state. Worth noting, the W7 PC itself never has any trouble booting up or legit closing down, the above noted only happens occasionally when exiting VRPC. Any thoughts please. Thanks Dave -- Dave Triffid From bbailey at argonet.co.uk Wed Jul 25 10:29:42 2018 From: bbailey at argonet.co.uk (Brian) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2018 10:29:42 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Shutdown problem VRPC and Windows In-Reply-To: <571cc36083dave@triffid.co.uk> References: <571cc36083dave@triffid.co.uk> Message-ID: <571d139894bbailey@argonet.co.uk> In article <571cc36083dave at triffid.co.uk>, Dave Symes via Virtualacorn-list wrote: > I'm wondering if anyone else here has encountered this problem. > Fay's computer is running Win 7 Pro and VRPC-Adjust SA and for the most > part no particular problems. However occasionally on shutting down VRPC > using either the Switcher Menu "Shutdown" or Ctrl+Shift+F12 VRPC shuts > down, then the monitor screen goes black and that's it, as it seems to > be frozen in that state. > No mouse pointer, no keyboard action from a three fingered salute... > Nada. > Press and hold the front power switch on the computer to force a power > off is the only exit from this freeze state. > Worth noting, the W7 PC itself never has any trouble booting up or legit > closing down, the above noted only happens occasionally when exiting > VRPC. > Any thoughts please. Not sure that this is the slightest bit of help, Dave, but I have noticed some variability in the time 'lag' between changing from VRPC screen to Win 7 screen on shutdown. It certainly isn't instantaneous. Conversely, on VRPC startup from Win 7 I have had a 'seized' black screen, once or twice I believe, that I reported some time back. Just had to get rough with a reset boot from the power switch. Graphics card/memory problem perhaps? Dunno? Just a wild guess! Best wishes Brian From j.mccartney at blueyonder.co.uk Wed Jul 25 11:10:02 2018 From: j.mccartney at blueyonder.co.uk (John McCartney) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2018 10:10:02 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients In-Reply-To: <571c9b2f1dj.mccartney@blueyonder.co.uk> References: <53160.91.85.218.30.1532098121.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <571c304c70j.mccartney@blueyonder.co.uk> <63547f05-d6dc-1964-4985-eb3413348596@dotcodotukat.co.uk> <571c9b2f1dj.mccartney@blueyonder.co.uk> Message-ID: <571d1749f5j.mccartney@blueyonder.co.uk> In article <571c9b2f1dj.mccartney at blueyonder.co.uk>, John McCartney via Virtualacorn-list wrote: > I've just picked up a personal e-mail from Bob but am > preoccupied with landscapers who have started today. I'll > put images on Dropbox later today. Here's the link: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/dmh2vk6l1u77jdt/AADZGt_82hll1XDtpXzha-Y3a?dl=0 I'm assuming that everyone on this list can access Dropbox from Windows or a Mac. If you're reading this in RISC OS, change the final 0 (zero) to a 1 (one) so that it downloads in NetSurf as a ZIP file. For Bob's benefit, the red boxes in BrokenQuote show where Pluto loses the threading level colour after the first line of the paragraph. The black arrows indicate the presence of a single return instead of a double one. In BrokenThread, the arrows show where your posts appear without being linked to the one(s) you're replying to. From the headers in your posts, it seems that you've just copied and pasted the bits you want to refer to because there isn't a line starting with "In-Reply-To:" Even if you *are* using web mail, there is a button to generate a proper reply, at least there is in the few systems I've seen. I hope this clarifies things for you, Bob. John -- John McCartney j.mccartney at blueyonder.co.uk From ardler at argonet.co.uk Wed Jul 25 16:49:05 2018 From: ardler at argonet.co.uk (Bob Ardler) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2018 16:49:05 +0100 (BST) Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients Message-ID: <50064.91.85.218.30.1532533745.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> 3rd shot, as "Reply all" was rejected for "too many recipients": > John McCartney wrote: > >> I've just picked up a personal e-mail from Bob but am >> preoccupied with landscapers who have started today. I'll >> put images on Dropbox later today. > > Here's the link: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/dmh2vk6l1u77jdt/AADZGt_82hll1XDtpXzha-Y3a?dl=0 > > I'm assuming that everyone on this list can access Dropbox > from Windows or a Mac. If you're reading this in RISC OS, > change the final 0 (zero) to a 1 (one) so that it downloads > in NetSurf as a ZIP file. Couldn't see how to change 0 to 1 without a self-email so did that. > For Bob's benefit, the red boxes in BrokenQuote show where > Pluto loses the threading level colour after the first line > of the paragraph. The black arrows indicate the presence of > a single return instead of a double one. Caused by differences in line-length or the CR/LF thing? Loss of all but the first >s ocasionally happens here. My 5space inset newpara was to replace tabs and reduce scrolling. Didn't know it was a sin, shall incur blackarrow no more. > In BrokenThread, the arrows show where your posts appear > without being linked to the one(s) you're replying to. From > the headers in your posts, it seems that you've just copied > and pasted the bits you want to refer to because there > isn't a line starting with "In-Reply-To:" This may be a daft misunderstanding: one email in the thread was From: sender at ownadr, not senderviaVAlist, so just for this thread I used Compose instead of Reply, thinking that Subject:?Re: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients would continue the thread -- forgetting that Pluto etc handle threading by electronic tag. > Even if you *are* using web mail, there is a button to > generate a proper reply, at least there is in the few > systems I've seen. Yes, back to the Reply button used on all other threads. No: seems the "Reply all" button's needed here. > I hope this clarifies things for you, Bob. Everything except what causes quote-mechanisms to clash. Thanks for your trouble. Hope landscaping flourishes. Bob From pnyoung at ormail.co.uk Wed Jul 25 19:08:54 2018 From: pnyoung at ormail.co.uk (Peter Young) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2018 19:08:54 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients In-Reply-To: <50064.91.85.218.30.1532533745.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> References: <50064.91.85.218.30.1532533745.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> Message-ID: <4f21431d57.pnyoung@pnyoung.ormail.co.uk> On 25 Jul 2018 Bob Ardler via Virtualacorn-list wrote: > 3rd shot, as "Reply all" was rejected for > "too many recipients": >> John McCartney wrote: >> >>> I've just picked up a personal e-mail from Bob but am >>> preoccupied with landscapers who have started today. I'll >>> put images on Dropbox later today. >> >> Here's the link: > https://www.dropbox.com/sh/dmh2vk6l1u77jdt/AADZGt_82hll1XDtpXzha-Y3a?dl=0 >> >> I'm assuming that everyone on this list can access Dropbox >> from Windows or a Mac. If you're reading this in RISC OS, >> change the final 0 (zero) to a 1 (one) so that it downloads >> in NetSurf as a ZIP file. > Couldn't see how to change 0 to 1 without a self-email so > did that. Save the message into StrongED (or maybe Zap), change the "0" into "1" and double-click the line. Bob's your uncle. Best wishes, Peter. -- Peter Young (zfc Au) and family Prestbury, Cheltenham, Glos. GL52, England http://pnyoung.orpheusweb.co.uk pnyoung at ormail.co.uk From atdotcodotuk at dotcodotukat.co.uk Wed Jul 25 21:21:36 2018 From: atdotcodotuk at dotcodotukat.co.uk (Vince M Hudd) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2018 21:21:36 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients In-Reply-To: <50064.91.85.218.30.1532533745.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> References: <50064.91.85.218.30.1532533745.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> Message-ID: <422246c8-84cb-9392-05a9-2f20d6196b87@dotcodotukat.co.uk> On 25/07/18 16:49, Bob Ardler via Virtualacorn-list wrote: > 3rd shot, as "Reply all" was rejected for "too many recipients": It wasn't rejected, it was held by the list server for my attention/approval - you've pre-empted that by reposting separately, though. This brings the thread full circle - look at the subject line and my original post: http://riscository.co.uk/pipermail/virtualacorn-list_riscository.co.uk/2018-July/002696.html So that's ironic. 8) -- Vince M Hudd - Soft Rock Software - www.softrock.co.uk RISCOSitory - www.riscository.com From ardler at argonet.co.uk Thu Jul 26 11:47:23 2018 From: ardler at argonet.co.uk (Bob Ardler) Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2018 11:47:23 +0100 (BST) Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients Message-ID: <49511.91.85.218.30.1532602043.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> Peter Young wrote: re: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/dmh2vk6l1u77jdt/AADZGt_82hll1XDtpXzha-Y3a?dl=0 >>> If you're reading this in RISC OS, >>> change the final 0 (zero) to a 1 (one) so that it downloads >>> in NetSurf as a ZIP file. > >> Couldn't see how to change 0 to 1 without a self-email so >> did that. > > Save the message into StrongED (or maybe Zap), change the > "0" into "1" and double-click the line. Bob's your uncle. Saving into Zap required saving as HTML from Zap. Zap didn't put the URL after the http:// so had to move it. Simpler than the email route. Thanks for the tip. Re the original VMH thread: clicking "Reply" here replies only to the sender you're reading; "Reply all" replies to sender plus list and causes "held for moderation" as Vince M Hudd noted. So you enter the list address by hand, which, if I understand J McC, snaps the thread. Yer carnt win. Bob From atdotcodotuk at dotcodotukat.co.uk Thu Jul 26 12:58:07 2018 From: atdotcodotuk at dotcodotukat.co.uk (Vince Hudd) Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2018 12:58:07 +0100 (BST) Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients In-Reply-To: <49511.91.85.218.30.1532602043.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> References: <49511.91.85.218.30.1532602043.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> Message-ID: <356715746.181632.1532606287339@email.1and1.co.uk> On 26 July 2018 at 11:47 Bob Ardler via Virtualacorn-list wrote: > Re the original VMH thread: clicking "Reply" here replies > only to the sender you're reading; "Reply all" replies to > sender plus list and causes "held for moderation" as Vince > M Hudd noted. So you enter the list address by hand, which, > if I understand J McC, snaps the thread. Yer carnt win. What this shows is that webmail - whether that's in general, or the specific implementation you are using - is somewhat lacking as a day to day email service. This is why a proper email client such as Pluto is a far better way to read email. Out of interest, I've just logged into the webmail service provided by my host to see how it handles list posts, and it showed a similar limitation you describe - though not quite the same. Ultimately, though, it boiled down to the same result of a reply either being sent directly to you, or to both you and the list (the Reply-all). But there is a quick fix in my case which may or may not also work for you/your webmail service: Hit reply-all, then delete the personal recipient from the To field, leaving only the list as a recipient. Indeed, this reply is being composed via my webmail service having done exactly that. From ardler at argonet.co.uk Thu Jul 26 13:34:17 2018 From: ardler at argonet.co.uk (Bob Ardler) Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2018 13:34:17 +0100 (BST) Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients In-Reply-To: <356715746.181632.1532606287339@email.1and1.co.uk> References: <49511.91.85.218.30.1532602043.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <356715746.181632.1532606287339@email.1and1.co.uk> Message-ID: <49746.91.85.218.30.1532608457.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> Vince M Hudd wrote: re: >> Re the original VMH thread: clicking "Reply" here replies >> only to the sender you're reading; "Reply all" replies to >> sender plus list and causes "held for moderation" as Vince >> M Hudd noted. So you enter the list address by hand, which, >> if I understand J McC, snaps the thread. Yer carnt win. > What this shows is that webmail - whether that's in general, or the > specific implementation you are using - is somewhat lacking as a day to > day email service. This is why a proper email client such as Pluto is a > far better way to read email. > > Out of interest, I've just logged into the webmail service provided > by my host to see how it handles list posts, and it showed a similar > limitation you describe - though not quite the same. Ultimately, > though, it boiled down to the same result of a reply either being > sent directly to you, or to both you and the list (the Reply-all). > > But there is a quick fix in my case which may or may not also work for > you/your webmail service: Hit reply-all, then delete the personal > recipient from the To field, leaving only the list as a recipient. > > Indeed, this reply is being composed via my webmail service having done > exactly that. That's weird: a blank "To:" and a "Cc:" to oneself via VAlist etc. Am trying it here. Even if it works, it doesn't explain why "Reply:" has worked in the past, with no "Multiple recipients" message. Well, it didn't -- ERROR: You have not filled in the "To" field. Moved the Cc addr into To:, trying again. From atdotcodotuk at dotcodotukat.co.uk Thu Jul 26 14:17:55 2018 From: atdotcodotuk at dotcodotukat.co.uk (Vince M Hudd) Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2018 14:17:55 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients In-Reply-To: <49746.91.85.218.30.1532608457.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> References: <49511.91.85.218.30.1532602043.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <356715746.181632.1532606287339@email.1and1.co.uk> <49746.91.85.218.30.1532608457.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> Message-ID: <90b7e045-eab8-a98c-bdb9-1d023b9bc878@dotcodotukat.co.uk> On 26/07/2018 13:34, Bob Ardler via Virtualacorn-list wrote: [My suggested work-around for replying just to the list via webmail - which works on my host's webmail, but might not elsewhere] > Even if it works, it doesn't explain why "Reply:" > has worked in the past, with no "Multiple recipients" message. If you've raised that point before, I haven't answered it because I haven't noticed it - sorry. I suspect the change occurred when I altered the list settings to cope with DMARC, a system designed to prevent email spoofing. There's a good chance that it worked for you up until that point - and as a result of that *necessary* change, it now doesn't. -- Vince M Hudd Soft Rock Software - www.softrock.co.uk RISCOSitory - www.riscository.com From ardler at argonet.co.uk Fri Jul 27 09:29:18 2018 From: ardler at argonet.co.uk (Bob Ardler) Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2018 09:29:18 +0100 (BST) Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients In-Reply-To: <90b7e045-eab8-a98c-bdb9-1d023b9bc878@dotcodotukat.co.uk> References: <49511.91.85.218.30.1532602043.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <356715746.181632.1532606287339@email.1and1.co.uk> <49746.91.85.218.30.1532608457.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <90b7e045-eab8-a98c-bdb9-1d023b9bc878@dotcodotukat.co.uk> Message-ID: <49307.91.85.218.30.1532680158.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> Vince M Hudd wrote: Re: >> why "Reply:" >> has worked in the past, with no "Multiple recipients" message. > [snip] > > I suspect the change occurred when I altered the list settings to cope > with DMARC, a system designed to prevent email spoofing. There's a good > chance that it worked for you up until that point - and as a result of > that *necessary* change, it now doesn't. Ah, am slow & getting slower: hadn't connected the items: > Vince M Hudd > Soft Rock Software - www.softrock.co.uk > RISCOSitory - www.riscository.com > Hosted by RISCOSitory/Soft Rock Software > http://www.riscository.com/mailing-lists/ So the complexity of modern programming replaces the old American aintbrokedontfixit epigram with "fix-this-bust-that, cant-be-helped, thats-the-world-today". No, am definitely not complaining. Shall stick to webmail and replutonate only should non-list email require it. Thanks, Vince, for the explanation. From dave at triffid.co.uk Fri Jul 27 11:31:43 2018 From: dave at triffid.co.uk (Dave Symes) Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2018 11:31:43 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients In-Reply-To: <49307.91.85.218.30.1532680158.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> References: <49511.91.85.218.30.1532602043.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <356715746.181632.1532606287339@email.1and1.co.uk> <49746.91.85.218.30.1532608457.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <90b7e045-eab8-a98c-bdb9-1d023b9bc878@dotcodotukat.co.uk> <49307.91.85.218.30.1532680158.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> Message-ID: <571e20f213dave@triffid.co.uk> In article <49307.91.85.218.30.1532680158.squirrel at email.orpheusnet.co.uk>, Bob Ardler via Virtualacorn-list wrote: [Snippy] > No, am definitely not complaining. Shall stick to webmail > and replutonate only should non-list email require it. > Thanks, Vince, for the explanation. Obviously a given, each to their own preferences... But... I have found this thread to be somewhat interesting and a bit weird... Yes as has been noted WebMail has its uses, and even I use it now and again, but to use Webmail as the primary device for internet mail seems very masochistic... particularly when there are excellent and even adequate Mail client apps with far far better facilities than ever found in a WebMail thing... Pluto, MessengerPro, Thunderbird to name just a few. If I scratch my head... anymore, I'll cover my keyboard in dandruff. ;-) Dave -- Dave Triffid From atdotcodotuk at dotcodotukat.co.uk Fri Jul 27 10:29:37 2018 From: atdotcodotuk at dotcodotukat.co.uk (Vince M Hudd) Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2018 10:29:37 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients In-Reply-To: <49307.91.85.218.30.1532680158.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> References: <49511.91.85.218.30.1532602043.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <356715746.181632.1532606287339@email.1and1.co.uk> <49746.91.85.218.30.1532608457.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <90b7e045-eab8-a98c-bdb9-1d023b9bc878@dotcodotukat.co.uk> <49307.91.85.218.30.1532680158.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> Message-ID: <50e14c71-acaa-177f-4bee-4ccc0ee0595a@dotcodotukat.co.uk> On 27/07/18 09:29, Bob Ardler via Virtualacorn-list wrote: > Vince M Hudd wrote: [On why what used to work for Bob now doesn't - caused by the changes for DMARC] > So the complexity of modern programming replaces the old > American aintbrokedontfixit epigram with "fix-this-bust-that, > cant-be-helped, thats-the-world-today". Except in this case (and countless other mailing lists) it wasn't a simple as that. Things *were* broken, and needed to be fixed. The way email works was flawed: it left open a gaping wide hole that spammers and fraudsters could easily exploit. Steps are being taken to deal with that, such as DMARC. That in turn meant this list and all those others had to be changed, unless they wanted to be broken by DMARC. If this causes problems for you, it's because you are using a system for email that has functional limitations. Historically, webmail was designed simply as a web-based means to access a normal mailbox using IMAP - but being web-based it's exactly like just about every other web-based alternative to a proper desktop application: greatly limited by comparison, both in speed and in features. If you wish to continue using webmail, that's entirely up to you - but when it doesn't work or doesn't do what you expect, remember that it's *your choice* to use something that just isn't up to the job. -- Vince M Hudd - Soft Rock Software - www.softrock.co.uk RISCOSitory - www.riscository.com From steffen at huber-net.de Fri Jul 27 22:21:48 2018 From: steffen at huber-net.de (Steffen Huber) Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2018 23:21:48 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients In-Reply-To: <571e20f213dave@triffid.co.uk> References: <49511.91.85.218.30.1532602043.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <356715746.181632.1532606287339@email.1and1.co.uk> <49746.91.85.218.30.1532608457.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <90b7e045-eab8-a98c-bdb9-1d023b9bc878@dotcodotukat.co.uk> <49307.91.85.218.30.1532680158.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <571e20f213dave@triffid.co.uk> Message-ID: <330061398.68209.1532726509030@communicator.strato.de> > Dave Symes via Virtualacorn-list wrote: > > Yes as has been noted WebMail has its uses, and even I use it now and > again, but to use Webmail as the primary device for internet mail seems > very masochistic... particularly when there are excellent and even > adequate Mail client apps with far far better facilities than ever found > in a WebMail thing... > Pluto, MessengerPro, Thunderbird to name just a few. I fear that, for modern WebMail systems, it turns out the WebMail is at least as powerful as Pluto and MessengerPro. And IIRC, Pluto is still tied to POP3 which is a nightmare if used from more than one device. At least my WebMail application is able to properly support the various character encodings, something MessengerPro still refuses to do. Oh, and it can be accessed with strong encryption. Steffen -- Steffen Huber LambdaComm System ? Welcome to Trollinger Country steffen at huber-net.de Private homepage http://www.huber-net.de/ RISC OS Blog http://riscosblog.huber-net.de/ From Stuartlists at orpheusinternet.co.uk Fri Jul 27 23:21:43 2018 From: Stuartlists at orpheusinternet.co.uk (lists) Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2018 23:21:43 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients In-Reply-To: <330061398.68209.1532726509030@communicator.strato.de> References: <49511.91.85.218.30.1532602043.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <356715746.181632.1532606287339@email.1and1.co.uk> <49746.91.85.218.30.1532608457.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <90b7e045-eab8-a98c-bdb9-1d023b9bc878@dotcodotukat.co.uk> <49307.91.85.218.30.1532680158.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <571e20f213dave@triffid.co.uk> <330061398.68209.1532726509030@communicator.strato.de> Message-ID: <571e61f28aStuartlists@orpheusinternet.co.uk> In article <330061398.68209.1532726509030 at communicator.strato.de>, Steffen Huber via Virtualacorn-list wrote: > I fear that, for modern WebMail systems, it turns out the WebMail is > at least as powerful as Pluto and MessengerPro. And IIRC, Pluto is > still tied to POP3 which is a nightmare if used from more than one > device. !Pluto is a reading/sending application and is tied only to whatever application is used to actually fetch mail from a server, or despatch to a server. In my case I use !POPstar which, whilst a POP3 client, can be configured to leave mail on the server after a fetch if required. -- Stuart Winsor Tools With A Mission sending tools across the world http://www.twam.co.uk/ From cvjazz at waitrose.com Sat Jul 28 00:20:00 2018 From: cvjazz at waitrose.com (Chris Newman) Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2018 00:20:00 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients In-Reply-To: <571e61f28aStuartlists@orpheusinternet.co.uk> References: <49511.91.85.218.30.1532602043.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <356715746.181632.1532606287339@email.1and1.co.uk> <49746.91.85.218.30.1532608457.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <90b7e045-eab8-a98c-bdb9-1d023b9bc878@dotcodotukat.co.uk> <49307.91.85.218.30.1532680158.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <571e20f213dave@triffid.co.uk> <330061398.68209.1532726509030@communicator.strato.de> <571e61f28aStuartlists@orpheusinternet.co.uk> Message-ID: <571e6748d1cvjazz@waitrose.com> In article <571e61f28aStuartlists at orpheusinternet.co.uk>, lists via Virtualacorn-list wrote: > In article <330061398.68209.1532726509030 at communicator.strato.de>, > Steffen Huber via Virtualacorn-list > wrote: > > I fear that, for modern WebMail systems, it turns out the WebMail is > > at least as powerful as Pluto and MessengerPro. And IIRC, Pluto is > > still tied to POP3 which is a nightmare if used from more than one > > device. > !Pluto is a reading/sending application and is tied only to whatever > application is used to actually fetch mail from a server, or despatch to a > server. In my case I use !POPstar which, whilst a POP3 client, can be > configured to leave mail on the server after a fetch if required. Ditto with Netfetch/Hermes -- Chris From steffen at huber-net.de Sat Jul 28 01:50:09 2018 From: steffen at huber-net.de (Steffen Huber) Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2018 02:50:09 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients In-Reply-To: <571e61f28aStuartlists@orpheusinternet.co.uk> References: <49511.91.85.218.30.1532602043.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <356715746.181632.1532606287339@email.1and1.co.uk> <49746.91.85.218.30.1532608457.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <90b7e045-eab8-a98c-bdb9-1d023b9bc878@dotcodotukat.co.uk> <49307.91.85.218.30.1532680158.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <571e20f213dave@triffid.co.uk> <330061398.68209.1532726509030@communicator.strato.de> <571e61f28aStuartlists@orpheusinternet.co.uk> Message-ID: <900409356.68849.1532739009812@communicator.strato.de> > lists via Virtualacorn-list wrote: > > > In article <330061398.68209.1532726509030 at communicator.strato.de>, > Steffen Huber via Virtualacorn-list > wrote: > > I fear that, for modern WebMail systems, it turns out the WebMail is > > at least as powerful as Pluto and MessengerPro. And IIRC, Pluto is > > still tied to POP3 which is a nightmare if used from more than one > > device. > > !Pluto is a reading/sending application and is tied only to whatever > application is used to actually fetch mail from a server, or despatch to a > server. In my case I use !POPstar which, whilst a POP3 client, can be > configured to leave mail on the server after a fetch if required. "Leaving mail on the server" is just not enough. I need to sort mail into folders. I need to have the same read/unread state across all devices. If I delete a mail on one device, it should be also deleted on the server. In short: I need IMAP. Technically, in Pluto's current state of handling fetching/sending from/to the server, it is impossible to properly support IMAP. I guess it is unlikely that someone will implement it in the near future. I used Messenger Pro for quite a while, and mostly liked it (especially its mailing list support and the seamless integration of mail and news). However, it is firmly stuck in the 90s. While - in contrast to Pluto - it supports IMAP, it has reportedly big performance issues when dealing with big mailboxes (mine is over 10 GiB). And it has broken encoding handling (last time I looked). And, IIRC, the server connector still uses the completely outdated SecureSockets module. If NetSurf gains enough JavaScript capabilities, it will immediately become the premier RISC OS email solution. This is really sad considering that both Messenger Pro and Pluto were ahead of the PC competition in the early days. Steffen -- Steffen Huber LambdaComm System ? Welcome to Trollinger Country steffen at huber-net.de Private homepage http://www.huber-net.de/ RISC OS Blog http://riscosblog.huber-net.de/ From jn.ml.vac.83 at wingsandbeaks.org.uk Sat Jul 28 09:40:08 2018 From: jn.ml.vac.83 at wingsandbeaks.org.uk (Jeremy Nicoll - ml VA) Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2018 09:40:08 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients In-Reply-To: <330061398.68209.1532726509030@communicator.strato.de> References: <49511.91.85.218.30.1532602043.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <356715746.181632.1532606287339@email.1and1.co.uk> <49746.91.85.218.30.1532608457.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <90b7e045-eab8-a98c-bdb9-1d023b9bc878@dotcodotukat.co.uk> <49307.91.85.218.30.1532680158.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <571e20f213dave@triffid.co.uk> <330061398.68209.1532726509030@communicator.strato.de> Message-ID: <721bddb15162eace05dac8e051abd052@wingsandbeaks.org.uk> On 2018-07-27 22:21, Steffen Huber via Virtualacorn-list wrote: >> Dave Symes via Virtualacorn-list >> wrote: >> >> Yes as has been noted WebMail has its uses, and even I use it now and >> again, but to use Webmail as the primary device for internet mail >> seems >> very masochistic... particularly when there are excellent and even >> adequate Mail client apps with far far better facilities than ever >> found >> in a WebMail thing... >> Pluto, MessengerPro, Thunderbird to name just a few. > > I fear that, for modern WebMail systems, it turns out the WebMail is > at least as powerful as Pluto and MessengerPro... Yes. I use two WebmMail systems - RoundCube (which is open source and many mail providers use), & fastmail.com's own/proprietary system. The latter looks nice and is very fast (you can easily forget you're using a web-based thing) and its searching and filtering capabilities are just as good as a local client. The things I miss in both of these are: - you can't edit the contents of a received mail (eg to change the subject line to something meaningful, or adjust the threading) - that they don't also handle nntp news. -- Jeremy Nicoll - my opinions are my own From atdotcodotuk at dotcodotukat.co.uk Sat Jul 28 12:04:32 2018 From: atdotcodotuk at dotcodotukat.co.uk (Vince M Hudd) Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2018 12:04:32 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Webmail vs a dedicated email client + POP3 vs IMAP (Was: Multiple recipients) In-Reply-To: <571e61f28aStuartlists@orpheusinternet.co.uk> References: <49511.91.85.218.30.1532602043.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <356715746.181632.1532606287339@email.1and1.co.uk> <49746.91.85.218.30.1532608457.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <90b7e045-eab8-a98c-bdb9-1d023b9bc878@dotcodotukat.co.uk> <49307.91.85.218.30.1532680158.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <571e20f213dave@triffid.co.uk> <330061398.68209.1532726509030@communicator.strato.de> <571e61f28aStuartlists@orpheusinternet.co.uk> Message-ID: <972f14de-7eaa-3ab1-5c98-ef404b697d0a@dotcodotukat.co.uk> On 27/07/18 23:21, lists via Virtualacorn-list wrote: > In article <330061398.68209.1532726509030 at communicator.strato.de>, > Steffen Huber via Virtualacorn-list > wrote: >> I fear that, for modern WebMail systems, it turns out the WebMail is >> at least as powerful as Pluto and MessengerPro. While this is almost certainly true in some cases - particularly where the webmail system is one of the primary products to draw people in to the provider's services, such as Google and Gmail[1]. However, the webmail offerings I've seen provided by ISPs to their customers tend to be somewhat more basic. I believe it is something more along those lines that Bob is using. [1] I have a gmail address which only sees very limited use, and I access it from my desktop using IMAP. I don't see the webby interface, so I don't really know what it's like - but despite my general dislike of Google, their developers are pretty damned good at what they do, so I imagine it's a pretty good system. >> And IIRC, Pluto is still tied to POP3 which is a nightmare if used from more than one >> device. > !Pluto is a reading/sending application and is tied only to whatever > application is used to actually fetch mail from a server, or despatch to a > server. That pretty much ties it to POP3 for receiving emails, as Steffen said. For it to be able to handle IMAP, it would pretty much have to speak directly to the mail server for almost every action it carries out on the contents of the mailbox. > In my case I use !POPstar which, whilst a POP3 client, can be > configured to leave mail on the server after a fetch if required. Before I switched to using IMAP I did similar, but it was always a flawed approach. -- Vince M Hudd - Soft Rock Software - www.softrock.co.uk RISCOSitory - www.riscository.com From druck at druck.org.uk Sun Jul 29 09:31:21 2018 From: druck at druck.org.uk (David J. Ruck) Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2018 09:31:21 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients In-Reply-To: <900409356.68849.1532739009812@communicator.strato.de> References: <49511.91.85.218.30.1532602043.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <356715746.181632.1532606287339@email.1and1.co.uk> <49746.91.85.218.30.1532608457.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <90b7e045-eab8-a98c-bdb9-1d023b9bc878@dotcodotukat.co.uk> <49307.91.85.218.30.1532680158.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <571e20f213dave@triffid.co.uk> <330061398.68209.1532726509030@communicator.strato.de> <571e61f28aStuartlists@orpheusinternet.co.uk> <900409356.68849.1532739009812@communicator.strato.de> Message-ID: On 28/07/2018 01:50, Steffen Huber via Virtualacorn-list wrote: > "Leaving mail on the server" is just not enough. I need to sort > mail into folders. I need to have the same read/unread state > across all devices. If I delete a mail on one device, it should be > also deleted on the server. In short: I need IMAP. Technically, > in Pluto's current state of handling fetching/sending from/to the > server, it is impossible to properly support IMAP. I guess it is > unlikely that someone will implement it in the near future. > > I used Messenger Pro for quite a while, and mostly liked it > (especially its mailing list support and the seamless integration > of mail and news). However, it is firmly stuck in the 90s. > While - in contrast to Pluto - it supports IMAP, it has reportedly > big performance issues when dealing with big mailboxes (mine is > over 10 GiB). And it has broken encoding handling (last time > I looked). And, IIRC, the server connector still uses the > completely outdated SecureSockets module. The obvious solution would be to set up a Linux Raspberry Pi as a local mail server, which downloads email from your ISP and shares it via IMAP to all clients. As it's local SecureSockets isn't needed from RISC OS, but a VPN can be set up to allow external secure access from your mobile devices. As this is a VA list, there may be a PC IMAP sever which could do the same, but I haven't looked. > If NetSurf gains enough JavaScript capabilities, it will > immediately become the premier RISC OS email solution. This > is really sad considering that both Messenger Pro and > Pluto were ahead of the PC competition in the early days. I've still not come across any webmail service which is a patch on a dedicated email program. Cheers ---David -- Email: druck at druck.org.uk Phone: +44-(0)7974 108301 From steffen at huber-net.de Tue Jul 31 15:49:44 2018 From: steffen at huber-net.de (Steffen Huber) Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2018 16:49:44 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients In-Reply-To: References: <49511.91.85.218.30.1532602043.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <356715746.181632.1532606287339@email.1and1.co.uk> <49746.91.85.218.30.1532608457.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <90b7e045-eab8-a98c-bdb9-1d023b9bc878@dotcodotukat.co.uk> <49307.91.85.218.30.1532680158.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <571e20f213dave@triffid.co.uk> <330061398.68209.1532726509030@communicator.strato.de> <571e61f28aStuartlists@orpheusinternet.co.uk> <900409356.68849.1532739009812@communicator.strato.de> Message-ID: <1840513606.181910.1533048584132@communicator.strato.de> > "David J. Ruck via Virtualacorn-list" wrote [snip] > The obvious solution would be to set up a Linux Raspberry Pi as a local > mail server, which downloads email from your ISP and shares it via IMAP > to all clients. As it's local SecureSockets isn't needed from RISC OS, > but a VPN can be set up to allow external secure access from your mobile > devices. > > As this is a VA list, there may be a PC IMAP sever which could do the > same, but I haven't looked. Unfortunately, this "obvious solution" only solves - despite the significant install and management overhead it creates - one single problem: Messenger Pro's insecureness. It does not magically allow Pluto to sensibly communicate with IMAP, and it does not solve the slowness of Messenger Pro handling large IMAP mailboxes, and it does not solve Messenger Pro's broken encoding handling. There are a few Qt-based open source email clients, maybe it would be worth improving the Qt port to make those really usable. Or maybe add secure IMAP and SMTP to TapirMail. > > If NetSurf gains enough JavaScript capabilities, it will > > immediately become the premier RISC OS email solution. This > > is really sad considering that both Messenger Pro and > > Pluto were ahead of the PC competition in the early days. > > I've still not come across any webmail service which is a patch on a > dedicated email program. What "dedicated email program" do you (or anyone reading this!) favour? I am in a seemingly constant search for something sensible. Things I tried include Messenger Pro (Windows), Opera Mail, Foxmail, Mailbird, eM Client, Pegasus Mail, Claws, Thunderbird and Columba. Claws is my favourite, but still far from ideal. Oh, and if you know a good client for Android... Steffen -- Steffen Huber LambdaComm System ? Welcome to Trollinger Country steffen at huber-net.de Private homepage http://www.huber-net.de/ RISC OS Blog http://riscosblog.huber-net.de/ From dave at triffid.co.uk Mon Jul 2 17:46:26 2018 From: dave at triffid.co.uk (Dave Symes) Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2018 17:46:26 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Boot problem In-Reply-To: <5710543d34cvjazz@waitrose.com> References: <570f6dd94acvjazz@waitrose.com> <20180628215623.C36B421D7A@outbound-queue-adx-1.mail.thdo.gradwell.net> <5710543d34cvjazz@waitrose.com> Message-ID: <5711635a57dave@triffid.co.uk> In article <5710543d34cvjazz at waitrose.com>, Chris Newman via Virtualacorn-list wrote: [Snippy] > It took a while to get A Round Tuiit as I have been taking advantage of > the hot weather & doing some repairs to our ancient conservatory wood > work. Dig out a bit, fill a bit, paint a bit. Then there's the ages you > have to wait for things to set & dry. What fun. I had to replace some > ancient hinges. The originals were packed out with pieces cut from a > Wills Woodbine fag packet (anyone remember them). Chiselit, Bodgit & > Leggit had obviously cut the holes too big. Modern hinges are slightly > bigger than the originals & the screw holes don't line up. More filling > & sanding. Hey ho! Reading the above I have to asume you are a mere DIYer!... Dave -- Dave Triffid From cvjazz at waitrose.com Mon Jul 2 22:02:05 2018 From: cvjazz at waitrose.com (Chris Newman) Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2018 22:02:05 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Boot problem In-Reply-To: <5711635a57dave@triffid.co.uk> References: <570f6dd94acvjazz@waitrose.com> <20180628215623.C36B421D7A@outbound-queue-adx-1.mail.thdo.gradwell.net> <5710543d34cvjazz@waitrose.com> <5711635a57dave@triffid.co.uk> Message-ID: <57117ac18dcvjazz@waitrose.com> In article <5711635a57dave at triffid.co.uk>, Dave Symes via Virtualacorn-list wrote: > In article <5710543d34cvjazz at waitrose.com>, > Chris Newman via Virtualacorn-list > wrote: > [Snippy] > > It took a while to get A Round Tuiit as I have been taking advantage of > > the hot weather & doing some repairs to our ancient conservatory wood > > work. Dig out a bit, fill a bit, paint a bit. Then there's the ages you > > have to wait for things to set & dry. What fun. I had to replace some > > ancient hinges. The originals were packed out with pieces cut from a > > Wills Woodbine fag packet (anyone remember them). Chiselit, Bodgit & > > Leggit had obviously cut the holes too big. Modern hinges are slightly > > bigger than the originals & the screw holes don't line up. More filling > > & sanding. Hey ho! > Reading the above I have to asume you are a mere DIYer!... Mere being the operative word, methinks. -- Chris From dave at triffid.co.uk Tue Jul 3 07:54:55 2018 From: dave at triffid.co.uk (Dave Symes) Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2018 07:54:55 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Boot problem In-Reply-To: <57117ac18dcvjazz@waitrose.com> References: <570f6dd94acvjazz@waitrose.com> <20180628215623.C36B421D7A@outbound-queue-adx-1.mail.thdo.gradwell.net> <5710543d34cvjazz@waitrose.com> <5711635a57dave@triffid.co.uk> <57117ac18dcvjazz@waitrose.com> Message-ID: <5711b108a1dave@triffid.co.uk> In article <57117ac18dcvjazz at waitrose.com>, Chris Newman via Virtualacorn-list wrote: > In article <5711635a57dave at triffid.co.uk>, > Dave Symes via Virtualacorn-list > wrote: > > In article <5710543d34cvjazz at waitrose.com>, > > Chris Newman via Virtualacorn-list > > wrote: > > [Snippy] > > > It took a while to get A Round Tuiit as I have been taking advantage > > > of the hot weather & doing some repairs to our ancient conservatory > > > wood work. Dig out a bit, fill a bit, paint a bit. Then there's the > > > ages you have to wait for things to set & dry. What fun. I had to > > > replace some ancient hinges. The originals were packed out with > > > pieces cut from a Wills Woodbine fag packet (anyone remember them). > > > Chiselit, Bodgit & Leggit had obviously cut the holes too big. > > > Modern hinges are slightly bigger than the originals & the screw > > > holes don't line up. More filling & sanding. Hey ho! > > Reading the above I have to asume you are a mere DIYer!... > Mere being the operative word, methinks. > Chris ;-) Small apology, didn't intend it to appear so pejorative... (Maybe) ;-) Having been a Building construction and maintenance pro for over 50 years, and 'wunce' upon a time the Grumpmaster, I sometimes still bristle at DIYer comments. :-) (My bad). Dave FWIW. Back in the days, an old fag packet whatever brand was a most useful thing to have in your tool box. 1) To contain the fags, then when empty... 2) To use for hinge and lock shims, etc. 3) To write material(x) lists and dims on. 4) If the fags packet had a loose foil liner... And... If some careless (person) blew a fuse (No one carried spares) the foil liner could be rolled around the blown fuse cartridge and put in to temporarily replace the fuse... Or twist rolled to put in a fuse box. Yes I know, but I'm commenting on long ago... Later when I ran my own business I did carry a pot of spare fuses and fuse wires. (x) That's material in the sense of timber, cement, ironmongery etc, and not a bolt of cloth. :-) Oh yes, and even back then we had boot problems. D. -- Dave Triffid From atdotcodotuk at dotcodotukat.co.uk Tue Jul 3 10:16:21 2018 From: atdotcodotuk at dotcodotukat.co.uk (Vince M Hudd) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2018 10:16:21 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients Message-ID: I've just spotted and approved a couple of messages that were held for moderation by the mailing list server. Both were dated 28th June, so they've been waiting around five days for me to notice. The reason they were held is because the system is set up to not allow messages with multiple recipients (so more than one address in the 'To' line, or a combination of 'To' and 'CC') Please try to avoid doing this. If you really must send your message to the list and somewhere else, use BCC for the other address(es). -- Vince M Hudd - Soft Rock Software - www.softrock.co.uk RISCOSitory - www.riscository.com From pnyoung at ormail.co.uk Tue Jul 3 10:51:39 2018 From: pnyoung at ormail.co.uk (Peter Young) Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2018 10:51:39 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 3 Jul 2018 Vince M Hudd via Virtualacorn-list wrote: > I've just spotted and approved a couple of messages that were held for > moderation by the mailing list server. Both were dated 28th June, so > they've been waiting around five days for me to notice. > The reason they were held is because the system is set up to not allow > messages with multiple recipients (so more than one address in the 'To' > line, or a combination of 'To' and 'CC') > Please try to avoid doing this. If you really must send your message to > the list and somewhere else, use BCC for the other address(es). Or use ImpEmail to compose a MailMerge message. http://sinenomine.co.uk/software/ bcc is OK up to a point. However, I send emails to 45 members of a walking group. If I use bcc to do this I find that all messages sent to gmail users bounce. Presumably, if the words "think" and "gmail" go in the same sentence, gmail thinks that anything sent to so many recipients must be spam. ImpEmail, however, produces 45 separate emails. Best wishes, Peter. -- Peter Young (zfc Pt) and family Prestbury, Cheltenham, Glos. GL52, England http://pnyoung.orpheusweb.co.uk pnyoung at ormail.co.uk From atdotcodotuk at dotcodotukat.co.uk Tue Jul 3 11:28:40 2018 From: atdotcodotuk at dotcodotukat.co.uk (Vince M Hudd) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2018 11:28:40 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4317d660-3335-d75c-984a-e88cbd452c71@dotcodotukat.co.uk> On 03/07/18 10:51, Peter Young via Virtualacorn-list wrote: >> Please try to avoid doing this. If you really must send your message to >> the list and somewhere else, use BCC for the other address(es). > Or use ImpEmail to compose a MailMerge message. > http://sinenomine.co.uk/software/ > bcc is OK up to a point. However, I send emails to 45 members of a walking > group. [snip problem doing that and ImpEmail as the solution] That's a slightly different issue, though - ImpEmail is for sending messages to a set of addresses in a database; it's a one-way thing. I'm talking about people replying to messages on this *discussion* list and including another address on the reply. -- Vince M Hudd - Soft Rock Software - www.softrock.co.uk RISCOSitory - www.riscository.com From vatory at abbeypress.co.uk Tue Jul 3 14:19:49 2018 From: vatory at abbeypress.co.uk (Jim Nagel) Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2018 14:19:49 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Vince M Hudd via Virtualacorn-list wrote on 3 Jul: > ... the system is set up to not allow messages with multiple > recipients (so more than one address in the 'To' line, or a > combination of 'To' and 'CC') > Please try to avoid doing this. If you really must send your message to > the list and somewhere else, use BCC for the other address(es). In MPro, one of the options when reading a mailinglist message is to "reply to group and include copy to sender" (Ctrl-click on the button). The result is TO the list and CC the individual. Would it be easy to set up the Riscository system to disallow messages with *more than 2* addresses total in TO and CC? -- Jim Nagel www.archivemag.co.uk From bbailey at argonet.co.uk Tue Jul 3 18:01:16 2018 From: bbailey at argonet.co.uk (Brian) Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2018 18:01:16 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] VRPC on Linux Message-ID: <5711e88bf4bbailey@argonet.co.uk> Could some kind soul bring me up to date re VRPC on Linux. Pros and cons - perhaps. Presently running VRPC RISCOS 4.02 on Win 7, mostly very satisfied, but wish to be forearmed re possible eventuality of being forced onto Win 10, sometime. Brian From druck at druck.org.uk Tue Jul 3 20:33:29 2018 From: druck at druck.org.uk (David J. Ruck) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2018 20:33:29 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] VRPC on Linux In-Reply-To: <5711e88bf4bbailey@argonet.co.uk> References: <5711e88bf4bbailey@argonet.co.uk> Message-ID: On 03/07/2018 18:01, Brian via Virtualacorn-list wrote: > Could some kind soul bring me up to date re VRPC on Linux. Pros and cons - > perhaps. VRPC isn't available for Linux, try asking about RPCemu on the newsgroups. ---druck -- Email: druck at druck.org.uk Phone: +44-(0)7974 108301 From atdotcodotuk at dotcodotukat.co.uk Wed Jul 4 09:10:33 2018 From: atdotcodotuk at dotcodotukat.co.uk (Vince M Hudd) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2018 09:10:33 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <94a09475-d3e1-def0-1459-6e422f287395@dotcodotukat.co.uk> On 03/07/18 14:19, Jim Nagel via Virtualacorn-list wrote: > Vince M Hudd via Virtualacorn-list wrote on 3 Jul: >> ... the system is set up to not allow messages with multiple >> recipients > In MPro, one of the options when reading a mailinglist message is to > "reply to group and include copy to sender" (Ctrl-click on the > button). The result is TO the list and CC the individual. What a strange option. What good reason is there to - in effect - send someone two copies of your reply? > Would it be easy to set up the Riscository system to disallow messages > with *more than 2* addresses total in TO and CC? Without checking, yes, I believe I can set a threshold number. I'm not convinced I should, though. I think it might be better if Messenger Pro was fixed so that it didn't have such a rude* button, unless I can be convinced it is a sensible option, and that increasing the list threshold is equally sensible. * Speaking as a subscriber to the mailing list, I would consider it rude of someone to send me a second copy of a reply I'm going to receive anyway. -- Vince M Hudd - Soft Rock Software - www.softrock.co.uk RISCOSitory - www.riscository.com From j.mccartney at blueyonder.co.uk Wed Jul 4 10:34:51 2018 From: j.mccartney at blueyonder.co.uk (John McCartney) Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2018 10:34:51 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5712438220j.mccartney@blueyonder.co.uk> In article , Vince M Hudd via Virtualacorn-list wrote: > I've just spotted and approved a couple of messages that > were held for moderation by the mailing list server. > Both were dated 28th June, so they've been waiting > around five days for me to notice. My reply was thus affected. However, Chris saw my reply straight away but I didn't see it until yesterday. John -- John McCartney j.mccartney at blueyonder.co.uk From jn.ml.vac.83 at wingsandbeaks.org.uk Wed Jul 4 10:39:28 2018 From: jn.ml.vac.83 at wingsandbeaks.org.uk (Jeremy Nicoll - ml VA) Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2018 10:39:28 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients In-Reply-To: <94a09475-d3e1-def0-1459-6e422f287395@dotcodotukat.co.uk> References: <94a09475-d3e1-def0-1459-6e422f287395@dotcodotukat.co.uk> Message-ID: <7d9830f569bd92f07fa0da8d6a2b2118@wingsandbeaks.org.uk> On 2018-07-04 09:10, Vince M Hudd via Virtualacorn-list wrote: > On 03/07/18 14:19, Jim Nagel via Virtualacorn-list wrote: >> Vince M Hudd via Virtualacorn-list wrote on 3 Jul: > >>> ... the system is set up to not allow messages with multiple >>> recipients > >> In MPro, one of the options when reading a mailinglist message is to >> "reply to group and include copy to sender" (Ctrl-click on the >> button). The result is TO the list and CC the individual. > > What a strange option. What good reason is there to - in effect - send > someone two copies of your reply? It's a good question, and personally I agree with you(*). But your email to this list, which I'm replying to, has 'too many' headers: From Vince via VA list Sender VA list To VA list Copy Vince Reply-To VA list and in the webamil system I'm using now, 'Reply' and 'Reply All' buttons are available, with different effects - Reply is back to the list and ReplyAll is list and you. You can see how many users would think ReplyAll made sense. * some email systems won't in fact deliver two copies - they de-dup on the mail provider's server if both copies would have ended up in the same 'mailbox' (that being a concept whose implementation varies between systems, I've found). So if someone sends me a private copy of the reply to a list mail quite I often I only receive that and not the public copy as well and that means that because of no list-server-type headers in the private copy, it's not filtered properly when it arrives here. The de-dup logic happens if for example I have what the mail provider regards as aliases and eg a personal email address me at mydomain and a list address mylistsubs at mydomain are both routed to a server mailbox eg mybigmailbox at mydomain and it's that mailbox I collect mail from. It also means that if one has two family members both subscribed to a single mail list, but their mails handled via provider aliases and routed to a single family mailbox, only one person will ever see each message. -- Jeremy Nicoll - my opinions are my own From atdotcodotuk at dotcodotukat.co.uk Wed Jul 4 14:15:41 2018 From: atdotcodotuk at dotcodotukat.co.uk (Vince M Hudd) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2018 14:15:41 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients In-Reply-To: <7d9830f569bd92f07fa0da8d6a2b2118@wingsandbeaks.org.uk> References: <94a09475-d3e1-def0-1459-6e422f287395@dotcodotukat.co.uk> <7d9830f569bd92f07fa0da8d6a2b2118@wingsandbeaks.org.uk> Message-ID: <624ee5b0-a288-0708-ac23-465528324bbd@dotcodotukat.co.uk> On 04/07/2018 10:39, Jeremy Nicoll - ml VA via Virtualacorn-list wrote: > On 2018-07-04 09:10, Vince M Hudd via Virtualacorn-list wrote: >> On 03/07/18 14:19, Jim Nagel via Virtualacorn-list wrote: [The list holds messages with >1 recipient for moderation] [Various snips] >>> In MPro, one of the options when reading a mailinglist message is to >>> "reply to group and include copy to sender" (Ctrl-click on the >>> button).? The result is TO the list and CC the individual. When I read that quickly earlier and replied, I didn't spot the need to ctrl-click the button; I read it as having a separate button to do it. But the need to ctrl-click means that while Messenger Pro has this - to me odd - option, it does require extra effort on the part of the sender to use it. (It appears Thunderbird also has this option, via a drop down menu on the 'Reply List' button - which also requires extra effort to use.) So the obvious solution is for people not to put in that extra effort, and just use the mailing list properly. 8) >> What a strange option. What good reason is there to - in effect - send >> someone two copies of your reply? > It's a good question, and personally I agree with you(*). > But your email to this list, which I'm replying to, has 'too many' > headers: > ? From?????? Vince via VA list > ? Sender???? VA list > ? To???????? VA list > ? Copy?????? Vince > ? Reply-To?? VA list Without spending time looking into what Mailman does, and instead going from memory for some things and guessing for others: From is "munged" to show the list address with the sender's name so that the from being the original sender's address doesn't upset some mail servers. This is the main DMARC solution. Sender could be removed, but the recommended setting is to include it. I think it essentially overwrites any existing sender in the message (if there is one) so that any bounces come to the list server instead of the original sender. I don't think there's a setting for the To line. The CC, I'm *guessing*, is used as a way to include the actual sender's address in the headers in such a way that it would be useful. For example if you specifically wanted to send me an off-list reply. The Reply-To I could change - IIRC the current setting isn't the recommended one, but I set it like that deliberately. Originally this was for old software like ArgoNET's PostyUser, which has no understanding of mailing lists - and I later discovered that Outlook Express also needed the same setting when investigating a problem someone had reported. Thinking about it, the change for DMARC - which basically puts the list address in the From line - should mean the Reply-To setting can be changed to what it should be, so I'll go through all the RISCOSitory lists and make that change. (I have to log in to this list specifically to send my own messages[1] so I'll change this list straight away. The others I'll do tonight.) [1] I put myself on moderation a while back because a spammer hit on the successful trick of spamming one of the mailing lists with my address in the From line. (I think it was this list, actually.) > * some email systems won't in fact deliver two copies - they de-dup > ? on the mail provider's server if both copies would have ended up > ? in the same 'mailbox' (that being a concept whose implementation > ? varies between systems, I've found). Some email clients have a similar setting. So if a copy is CC'd to the previous poster: * They'll see two copies if their server/client doesn't have the option - which I'd find annoying. * They won't if their server/client does have that option - which means sending the two copies is a pointless thing to do anyway! -- Vince M Hudd Soft Rock Software - www.softrock.co.uk RISCOSitory - www.riscository.com From atdotcodotuk at dotcodotukat.co.uk Wed Jul 4 14:25:37 2018 From: atdotcodotuk at dotcodotukat.co.uk (Vince M Hudd) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2018 14:25:37 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients In-Reply-To: <5712438220j.mccartney@blueyonder.co.uk> References: <5712438220j.mccartney@blueyonder.co.uk> Message-ID: On 04/07/2018 10:34, John McCartney via Virtualacorn-list wrote: > Vince M Hudd via Virtualacorn-list > wrote: >> I've just spotted and approved a couple of messages that >> were held for moderation by the mailing list server. >> Both were dated 28th June, so they've been waiting >> around five days for me to notice. > My reply was thus affected. However, Chris saw my reply > straight away but I didn't see it until yesterday. Yes - that's because the CC doesn't go via the mailing list; that's an email being sent straight from you to the recipient. Had you not done that, the list server would have just passed your message on to the list normally, and you would *both* have seen your reply straight away. (Ish, subject to when/how you fetch mail, etc). -- Vince M Hudd Soft Rock Software - www.softrock.co.uk RISCOSitory - www.riscository.com From atdotcodotuk at dotcodotukat.co.uk Wed Jul 4 14:38:41 2018 From: atdotcodotuk at dotcodotukat.co.uk (Vince M Hudd) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2018 14:38:41 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients In-Reply-To: <624ee5b0-a288-0708-ac23-465528324bbd@dotcodotukat.co.uk> References: <94a09475-d3e1-def0-1459-6e422f287395@dotcodotukat.co.uk> <7d9830f569bd92f07fa0da8d6a2b2118@wingsandbeaks.org.uk> <624ee5b0-a288-0708-ac23-465528324bbd@dotcodotukat.co.uk> Message-ID: <066fd8cb-e2ff-ce52-d17f-2488f04bb362@dotcodotukat.co.uk> On 04/07/2018 14:15, Vince M Hudd via Virtualacorn-list wrote: > The CC, I'm *guessing*, is used as a way to include the actual sender's > address in the headers in such a way that it would be useful. For > example if you specifically wanted to send me an off-list reply. > The Reply-To I could change [...] The default/recommended setting is for it to be set to Poster; now the Reply-to line contains the original poster's email address, and the CC line is no longer present. This is consistent with my guess about that line. I note that going to the extra effort in Thunderbird to "Reply All" no longer adds a CC line - it was replying to all the recipients of the original message, and I wonder if Messenger Pro will behave similarly? If so, the option makes sense now - the inclusion of the CC in the headers (a side effect of the Reply-To setting, which as I said was to be helpful to software from the Dark Ages) was confusing the issue. -- Vince M Hudd Soft Rock Software - www.softrock.co.uk RISCOSitory - www.riscository.com From j.mccartney at blueyonder.co.uk Wed Jul 4 20:08:34 2018 From: j.mccartney at blueyonder.co.uk (John McCartney) Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2018 20:08:34 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients In-Reply-To: References: <5712438220j.mccartney@blueyonder.co.uk> Message-ID: <57127809e3j.mccartney@blueyonder.co.uk> In article , Vince M Hudd via Virtualacorn-list wrote: > > My reply was thus affected. However, Chris saw my reply > > straight away but I didn't see it until yesterday. > Yes - that's because the CC doesn't go via the mailing > list; that's an email being sent straight from you to > the recipient. > Had you not done that, the list server would have just > passed your message on to the list normally, and you > would *both* have seen your reply straight away. (Ish, > subject to when/how you fetch mail, etc). Obvious when it's explained. Thanks Vince, John -- John McCartney j.mccartney at blueyonder.co.uk From vatory at abbeypress.co.uk Wed Jul 11 16:03:07 2018 From: vatory at abbeypress.co.uk (Jim Nagel) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2018 16:03:07 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients In-Reply-To: <624ee5b0-a288-0708-ac23-465528324bbd@dotcodotukat.co.uk> References: <94a09475-d3e1-def0-1459-6e422f287395@dotcodotukat.co.uk> <7d9830f569bd92f07fa0da8d6a2b2118@wingsandbeaks.org.uk> <624ee5b0-a288-0708-ac23-465528324bbd@dotcodotukat.co.uk> Message-ID: Vince M Hudd via Virtualacorn-list wrote on 4 Jul: > On 04/07/2018 10:39, Jeremy Nicoll - ml VA via Virtualacorn-list wrote: >> On 2018-07-04 09:10, Vince M Hudd via Virtualacorn-list wrote: >>> On 03/07/18 14:19, Jim Nagel via Virtualacorn-list wrote: > [Various snips] >>>> In MPro, one of the options when reading a mailinglist message is to >>>> "reply to group and include copy to sender" (Ctrl-click on the >>>> button).? The result is TO the list and CC the individual. ... >>> What a strange option. What good reason is there to - in effect - send >>> someone two copies of your reply? >> It's a good question, and personally I agree with you(*). The only situation where I have ever used MPro's ctrl-Reply option is where I know the list moderator* sends stuff only once a day or at even longer intervals but the OP needs a reply quickly. (* not this list, of course!) Maybe it'd be better if the email client sent the copy as BCC rather than CC, but that's outside Vince's ctrl. It might in fact be an advantage in that the individual's address would not be broadcast with potential for spambots to see it. -- Jim Nagel www.archivemag.co.uk From ardler at argonet.co.uk Thu Jul 12 10:28:15 2018 From: ardler at argonet.co.uk (Bob Ardler) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2018 10:28:15 +0100 (BST) Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients Message-ID: <49458.91.85.218.30.1531387695.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> Jim Nagel, Vince M Hudd and others wrote: [...] MPro [...] What is MPro? (Those of us foolish enough to gain an Msc in CompSci in 1972 know less about computing than today's average 6-year-old. And what is the technical term for the progressive outofdatery equivalent to built-in obsolescence?) Bob From p.sprangers at sprie.nl Thu Jul 12 11:09:59 2018 From: p.sprangers at sprie.nl (Paul Sprangers) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2018 12:09:59 +0200 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients In-Reply-To: <49458.91.85.218.30.1531387695.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> References: <49458.91.85.218.30.1531387695.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> Message-ID: <9f55d50b-8c51-ea56-eda4-14be0e31aaf0@sprie.nl> > Those of us foolish enough to gain an Msc in CompSci in 1972 know less > about computing than today's average 6-year-old I don't know how foolish a Msc in CompSci in 1972 is, but I think that the computing skills of 6-year-olds is largely overestimated. Yes, they know exactly which buttons need to be pressed to make their favourite game appear, but I wonder if that should be entitled as 'computer skill'. Even most of the *16*-year-olds, who spend more time on their phones (and computers) than me in my lifetime, are completely helpless if something goes wrong. But I digress... Kind regards, Paul Sprangers From vatory at abbeypress.co.uk Thu Jul 12 12:19:57 2018 From: vatory at abbeypress.co.uk (Jim Nagel) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2018 12:19:57 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients In-Reply-To: <49458.91.85.218.30.1531387695.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> References: <49458.91.85.218.30.1531387695.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> Message-ID: <66d26b1657.jim@6.abbeypress.net> Bob Ardler via Virtualacorn-list wrote on 12 Jul: > Jim Nagel, Vince M Hudd and others wrote: >> [...] MPro [...] > What is MPro? Sorry: it's one of my own pet peeves that people write abbreviations at first mention, forgetting that some not-yet-familiar readers might appreciate a spelling-out. MPro is Messenger Pro, the email and news client application sold by R-Comp. I think there's a version for Windows too (someone will correct me if I'm wrong). The older version was called Messenger. The original authors are Mark Sawle and Tom Hughes. The other main news and email client app for RiscOS is Pluto. -- Jim Nagel www.archivemag.co.uk From j.mccartney at blueyonder.co.uk Thu Jul 12 15:55:03 2018 From: j.mccartney at blueyonder.co.uk (John McCartney) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2018 15:55:03 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients In-Reply-To: <66d26b1657.jim@6.abbeypress.net> References: <49458.91.85.218.30.1531387695.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <66d26b1657.jim@6.abbeypress.net> Message-ID: <57167f8409j.mccartney@blueyonder.co.uk> In article <66d26b1657.jim at 6.abbeypress.net>, Jim Nagel via Virtualacorn-list wrote: > Bob Ardler via Virtualacorn-list wrote on 12 Jul: > > Jim Nagel, Vince M Hudd and others wrote: > >> [...] MPro [...] > > What is MPro? > Sorry: it's one of my own pet peeves that people write > abbreviations at first mention, forgetting that some > not-yet-familiar readers might appreciate a spelling-out. This is exactly what is done (in what used to be called) Service Writing (SW). SW is the way written communications are made (or should be made) in the armed forces and civil service. When I was in the RAF, all that one needed to know about SW was contained in a Joint Service Publication (JSP) entitled JSP 101. Things move on and the topic is now known as Defence Writing. Note that, having mentioned it in full, I haven't put its abbreviation in parentheses. This is because I'm not going to mention it again and the abbreviation would be redundant. John -- John McCartney j.mccartney at blueyonder.co.uk From ardler at argonet.co.uk Fri Jul 13 09:57:36 2018 From: ardler at argonet.co.uk (Bob Ardler) Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2018 09:57:36 +0100 (BST) Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients In-Reply-To: <66d26b1657.jim@6.abbeypress.net> References: <49458.91.85.218.30.1531387695.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <66d26b1657.jim@6.abbeypress.net> Message-ID: <62160.91.85.218.30.1531472256.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> Jim Nagel wrote: re: >> What is MPro? > [...] > MPro is Messenger Pro, the email and news client application sold by R-Comp. I think there's a version for Windows too (someone will correct me if I'm wrong). Ah, bell should have rung. > The older version was called Messenger. The original authors are Mark Sawle and Tom Hughes. > The other main news and email client app for RiscOS is Pluto. Plot thickens. !NetFetch and !Messenger sit where Andrew's team put them on the pinboard, but to email we just NetSurf webmail, log in & do it all on Netsurf. (NetFetch pops up on entering RiscOS from Windows, offering stuff which would require study to use.) One misses Pluto's style and versatility, but learning how to use it with webmail seems too much bother. As to multiple recipients, our local environment discussion group with 32ish members put 32ish addressees in Cc, not Bcc. Most of them also quote in full (including each Cc) every previous message on the topic. Could be that this apparent goofitude is caused by people using smart phones on the move being unable to do the fiddly bits. Could the messages Vince spotted have come from phones? -- Bob From j.mccartney at blueyonder.co.uk Fri Jul 13 11:36:42 2018 From: j.mccartney at blueyonder.co.uk (John McCartney) Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2018 11:36:42 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients In-Reply-To: <62160.91.85.218.30.1531472256.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> References: <49458.91.85.218.30.1531387695.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <66d26b1657.jim@6.abbeypress.net> <62160.91.85.218.30.1531472256.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> Message-ID: <5716ebb2d5j.mccartney@blueyonder.co.uk> In article <62160.91.85.218.30.1531472256.squirrel at email.orpheusnet.co.uk>, Bob Ardler via Virtualacorn-list wrote: > Jim Nagel wrote: > re: > >> What is MPro? > > [...] > > MPro is Messenger Pro, the email and news client > > application sold by > R-Comp. I think there's a version for Windows too > (someone will correct me if I'm wrong). > Ah, bell should have rung. > > The older version was called Messenger. The original > > authors are Mark Sawle and Tom Hughes. > > The other main news and email client app for RiscOS is > > Pluto. > Plot thickens. !NetFetch and !Messenger sit where > Andrew's team put them on the pinboard, but to email we > just NetSurf webmail, log in & do it all on Netsurf. That'll be why your e-mails look a mess when viewed (in my case) on Pluto. The threading is broken and quoting is discontinuous. In order to compose this reply, I've had to extensively edit your last email to make it more easily readable. > (NetFetch pops up on entering RiscOS from Windows, > offering stuff which would require study to use.) One > misses Pluto's style and versatility, but learning how to > use it with webmail seems too much bother. > As to multiple recipients, our local environment > discussion group with 32ish members put 32ish addressees > in Cc, not Bcc. Most of them also quote in full > (including each Cc) every previous message on the topic. > Could be that this apparent goofitude is caused by people > using smart phones on the move being unable to do the > fiddly bits. Your use of NetSurf and webmail doesn't seem to be able to cope with the fiddly bits either. It would help somewhat if you separated paragraphs with a double return instead of just indenting the first line. I've had to do that before getting Pluto to reformat so that your last two paragraphs don't end up as one. > Could the messages Vince spotted have come from phones? Mine was created in Pluto on an ARMX6. John -- John McCartney j.mccartney at blueyonder.co.uk From vatory at abbeypress.co.uk Fri Jul 13 13:26:11 2018 From: vatory at abbeypress.co.uk (Jim Nagel) Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2018 13:26:11 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] / how to switch Quoting off? In-Reply-To: <62160.91.85.218.30.1531472256.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> References: <49458.91.85.218.30.1531387695.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <66d26b1657.jim@6.abbeypress.net> <62160.91.85.218.30.1531472256.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> Message-ID: <01b9f51657.jim@6.abbeypress.net> Bob Ardler via Virtualacorn-list wrote on 13 Jul: > ... Most of ... our local environment discussion group with 32ish > members ... quote in full (including each Cc) every previous message > on the topic. Could be that this apparent goofitude is caused by > people using smartphones on the move being unable to do the fiddly > bits. I would think that whatever email software they are using, on smartphone or desktop or wherever, would have something in Settings (or Configure or similar name) where they could switch quoting off. Otherwise, I guess the problem with hoi polloi is just that they are too lazy to use their Delete key before they hit Send. (Pet peeve.) -- Jim Nagel www.archivemag.co.uk From Stuartlists at orpheusinternet.co.uk Fri Jul 13 18:27:38 2018 From: Stuartlists at orpheusinternet.co.uk (lists) Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2018 17:27:38 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients In-Reply-To: <62160.91.85.218.30.1531472256.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> References: <49458.91.85.218.30.1531387695.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <66d26b1657.jim@6.abbeypress.net> <62160.91.85.218.30.1531472256.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> Message-ID: <571711523dStuartlists@orpheusinternet.co.uk> In article <62160.91.85.218.30.1531472256.squirrel at email.orpheusnet.co.uk>, Bob Ardler via Virtualacorn-list wrote: > One misses Pluto's style and versatility, So why aren't you using it instead of trying to use webmail? -- Stuart Winsor Tools With A Mission sending tools across the world http://www.twam.co.uk/ From pnyoung at ormail.co.uk Fri Jul 13 17:47:33 2018 From: pnyoung at ormail.co.uk (Peter Young) Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2018 17:47:33 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients In-Reply-To: <571711523dStuartlists@orpheusinternet.co.uk> References: <49458.91.85.218.30.1531387695.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <66d26b1657.jim@6.abbeypress.net> <62160.91.85.218.30.1531472256.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <571711523dStuartlists@orpheusinternet.co.uk> Message-ID: On 13 Jul 2018 lists via Virtualacorn-list wrote: > In article <62160.91.85.218.30.1531472256.squirrel at email.orpheusnet.co.uk>, > Bob Ardler via Virtualacorn-list > wrote: >> One misses Pluto's style and versatility, > So why aren't you using it instead of trying to use webmail? +1. Webmail is the invention from Hell. Best wishes, Peter. -- Peter Young (zfc Au) and family Prestbury, Cheltenham, Glos. GL52, England http://pnyoung.orpheusweb.co.uk pnyoung at ormail.co.uk From dave at triffid.co.uk Fri Jul 13 19:12:57 2018 From: dave at triffid.co.uk (Dave Symes) Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2018 19:12:57 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients In-Reply-To: References: <49458.91.85.218.30.1531387695.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <66d26b1657.jim@6.abbeypress.net> <62160.91.85.218.30.1531472256.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <571711523dStuartlists@orpheusinternet.co.uk> Message-ID: <5717157835dave@triffid.co.uk> In article , Peter Young via Virtualacorn-list wrote: > On 13 Jul 2018 lists via Virtualacorn-list > wrote: > > In article <62160.91.85.218.30.1531472256.squirrel at email.orpheusnet.co.uk>, > > Bob Ardler via Virtualacorn-list > > wrote: > >> One misses Pluto's style and versatility, > > So why aren't you using it instead of trying to use webmail? > +1. Webmail is the invention from Hell. > Best wishes, > Peter. I can think of a number of other things that are inventions from hell... On balance, while Webmail is crude it has its uses. Dave -- Dave Triffid From ardler at argonet.co.uk Fri Jul 20 15:48:41 2018 From: ardler at argonet.co.uk (Bob Ardler) Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2018 15:48:41 +0100 (BST) Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients Message-ID: <53160.91.85.218.30.1532098121.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> John McCartney wrote: re: >> !NetFetch and !Messenger sit where >> Andrew's team put them on the pinboard, but to email we >> just NetSurf webmail, log in & do it all on Netsurf. > That'll be why your e-mails look a mess when viewed (in my > case) on Pluto. The threading is broken and quoting is > discontinuous. In order to compose this reply, I've had to > extensively edit your last email to make it more easily > readable. Well, same here with many others' emails. (Broken-threading and continuous-quoting are terms beyond my ken.) >> [...] group with 32ish members put 32ish addressees >> in Cc, not Bcc. Most of them also quote in full >> (including each Cc) every previous message on the topic. >> Could be [...] caused by [...] smart phones on the move >> being unable to do the fiddly bits. > Your use of NetSurf and webmail doesn't seem to be able to > cope with the fiddly bits either. It would help somewhat if > you separated paragraphs with a double return instead of > just indenting the first line. I've had to do that before > getting Pluto to reformat so that your last two paragraphs > don't end up as one. OK, indent bad, double return good now added to goodmanners. Yonks ago Paul Vigay said no more Pluto, webmail now, use your browser. Hence the NetSurfing, as the RiscOS FireFox doesn't work here and Webster pages have weird layout. Andrew made NetFetch pop up on RiscOS entry with multiple options needing study & practice, so am sticking with the simple way. Didn't realize it rattles Pluto. Er, typed this days ago & clicked Save Draft instead of Send. Dementia rules. Bob From styleguide at avisoft.f9.co.uk Fri Jul 20 17:14:45 2018 From: styleguide at avisoft.f9.co.uk (Martin) Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2018 17:14:45 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients In-Reply-To: <53160.91.85.218.30.1532098121.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> References: <53160.91.85.218.30.1532098121.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> Message-ID: <571aa57fd4styleguide@avisoft.f9.co.uk> On 20 Jul in article <53160.91.85.218.30.1532098121.squirrel at email.orpheusnet.co.uk>, Bob Ardler via Virtualacorn-list wrote: > John McCartney wrote: > re: > >> !NetFetch and !Messenger sit where > >> Andrew's team put them on the pinboard, but to email we > >> just NetSurf webmail, log in & do it all on Netsurf. > > That'll be why your e-mails look a mess when viewed (in my > > case) on Pluto. The threading is broken and quoting is > > discontinuous. In order to compose this reply, I've had to > > extensively edit your last email to make it more easily > > readable. > Well, same here with many others' emails. (Broken-threading > and continuous-quoting are terms beyond my ken.) Broken Threads are when messages which are replies do not contain in their header lines (not normally seen) a 'References:' header containing a reference to the original message. This means that mail readers which can display message 'threads' properly cannot do so, and the thread is 'broken'. Then the only way to group messages together is by the subject. Strangely, of your 3 replies in this thread, one was referenced correctly, the other two were not. Continuous Quoting probably refers to the nasty habit of some mail programs to send chunks of text which are way way over the standard 70 or so line length limit. When quoted, there is just one quote indicator (eg '>') at the start of many lines of displayed text, instead of at the start of every displayed line. > > Your use of NetSurf and webmail doesn't seem to be able to > > cope with the fiddly bits either. It would help somewhat if > > you separated paragraphs with a double return instead of > > just indenting the first line. I've had to do that before > > getting Pluto to reformat so that your last two paragraphs > > don't end up as one. > OK, indent bad, double return good now added to goodmanners. > Yonks ago Paul Vigay said no more Pluto, webmail now, use > your browser. Hence the NetSurfing, as the RiscOS FireFox > doesn't work here and Webster pages have weird layout. > Andrew made NetFetch pop up on RiscOS entry with multiple > options needing study & practice, so am sticking with the > simple way. Didn't realize it rattles Pluto. Pluto will happily display most non-standard messages without being rattled, but they can be more difficult to read and reply to than standard ones. In an earlier post, you wrote: > One misses Pluto's style and versatility, but learning how to use > it with webmail seems too much bother. If you miss Pluto, then it can easily be used on any RISC OS machine. You do not use it 'with webmail'. The fetching and sending of emails for Pluto over the Internet is handled by a Transport Application as always - eg AntiSpam, POPstar, Hermes (probably in your NetFetch). For further details of Pluto, see www.avisoft.f9.co.uk/Pluto for infomation and a contact email address. IMHO when away from your RISC OS machine but with access to a browser, Webmail has its uses, but I personally would not like to use it all the time. Martin -- Martin Avison using a British Iyonix running RISC OS 5 and the Pluto mail and newsreader From ardler at argonet.co.uk Sun Jul 22 11:04:01 2018 From: ardler at argonet.co.uk (Bob Ardler) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2018 11:04:01 +0100 (BST) Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients threadcut In-Reply-To: <571aa57fd4styleguide@avisoft.f9.co.uk> References: <53160.91.85.218.30.1532098121.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <571aa57fd4styleguide@avisoft.f9.co.uk> Message-ID: <50053.91.85.218.30.1532253841.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> Martin Avison wrote: Re: >> [...] Broken-threading & continuous-quoting are beyond my ken. > Broken Threads are when messages which are replies do not contain in > their header lines (not normally seen) a 'References:' header > containing a reference to the original message. This means that mail > readers which can display message 'threads' properly cannot do so, > and the thread is 'broken'. Then the only way to group messages > together is by the subject. Strangely, of your 3 replies in this > thread, one was referenced correctly, the other two were not. > > Continuous Quoting probably refers to the nasty habit of some mail > programs to send chunks of text which are way way over the standard > 70 or so line length limit. When quoted, there is just one quote > indicator (eg '>') at the start of many lines of displayed text, > instead of at the start of every displayed line. > Pluto will happily display most non-standard messages without being > rattled, but they can be more difficult to read and reply to than > standard ones. > > In an earlier post, you wrote: >> One misses Pluto's style and versatility, but learning how to use >> it with webmail seems too much bother. > > If you miss Pluto, then it can easily be used on any RISC OS machine. > You do not use it 'with webmail'. > The fetching and sending of emails for Pluto over the Internet is > handled by a Transport Application as always - eg AntiSpam, POPstar, > Hermes (probably in your NetFetch). > > For further details of Pluto, see www.avisoft.f9.co.uk/Pluto for > infomation and a contact email address. > > IMHO when away from your RISC OS machine but with access to a > browser, Webmail has its uses, but I personally would not like to use > it all the time. Thanks, Martin, for several clarifications. Can now see, with apologies, that my questions have cut Vince M Hudd's thread with digression. Have googled & learnt you've taken over Pluto & his e-creation from Jonathan Duddington -- a vital job which gave huge benefit to a brave partially-sighted woman in Greenwich. Sadly, the message from Paul Vigay (or successor?) and argonet was quite clear: webmail from now on. In any case, filing by hand & sorting by sender (or e-list and subject) has become routine. So it's a sad goodbye to splendid Pluto & Jonathan (couldn't find what's become of him on Google). Good luck with your splendid work, Bob From atdotcodotuk at dotcodotukat.co.uk Sun Jul 22 11:22:45 2018 From: atdotcodotuk at dotcodotukat.co.uk (Vince M Hudd) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2018 11:22:45 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients threadcut In-Reply-To: <50053.91.85.218.30.1532253841.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> References: <53160.91.85.218.30.1532098121.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <571aa57fd4styleguide@avisoft.f9.co.uk> <50053.91.85.218.30.1532253841.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> Message-ID: <7e4cd432-da5c-4acb-30e4-6b78a5959d5a@dotcodotukat.co.uk> On 22/07/18 11:04, Bob Ardler via Virtualacorn-list wrote: > Sadly, the message from Paul Vigay (or successor?) and argonet was > quite clear: webmail from now on. In all honesty, I'd be absolutely amazed if Paul said anything of the sort - and I can't see Richard Brown (who now runs Orpheus) suggesting something like that, either. Orpheus has always included mailboxes accessed in the normal way as part of the service. I strongly suspect that you've misunderstood something that one of them has said. -- Vince M Hudd - Soft Rock Software - www.softrock.co.uk RISCOSitory - www.riscository.com From druck at druck.org.uk Sun Jul 22 12:09:51 2018 From: druck at druck.org.uk (David J. Ruck) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2018 12:09:51 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients threadcut In-Reply-To: <50053.91.85.218.30.1532253841.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> References: <53160.91.85.218.30.1532098121.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <571aa57fd4styleguide@avisoft.f9.co.uk> <50053.91.85.218.30.1532253841.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> Message-ID: <27b2c074-49f1-7b8f-1d4b-4d1cc77cda5d@druck.org.uk> On 22/07/2018 11:04, Bob Ardler via Virtualacorn-list wrote: > Sadly, the message from Paul > Vigay (or successor?) and argonet was quite clear: webmail from now > on. In any case, filing by hand & sorting by sender (or e-list and > subject) has become routine. So it's a sad goodbye to splendid Pluto > & Jonathan (couldn't find what's become of him on Google). Well there are other ISPs which still provide email, but if you are determined to stay with Orpheus, there are other options. Some webmail providers also provide POP and IMAP access, such as gmail. There are also a number of free and subscription email services which you can use from any ISP. ---druck -- Email: druck at druck.org.uk Phone: +44-(0)7974 108301 From Stuartlists at orpheusinternet.co.uk Sun Jul 22 21:34:28 2018 From: Stuartlists at orpheusinternet.co.uk (lists) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2018 21:34:28 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients threadcut In-Reply-To: <27b2c074-49f1-7b8f-1d4b-4d1cc77cda5d@druck.org.uk> References: <53160.91.85.218.30.1532098121.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <571aa57fd4styleguide@avisoft.f9.co.uk> <50053.91.85.218.30.1532253841.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <27b2c074-49f1-7b8f-1d4b-4d1cc77cda5d@druck.org.uk> Message-ID: <571bc4f2e2Stuartlists@orpheusinternet.co.uk> In article <27b2c074-49f1-7b8f-1d4b-4d1cc77cda5d at druck.org.uk>, David J. Ruck via Virtualacorn-list wrote: > Well there are other ISPs which still provide email, but if you are > determined to stay with Orpheus, Orpheus do still provide email and as far as I am aware there is no plan to drop it. Of three aliases I have, one is an Orpheus domain account, one is an Argonet domain account and the third a zfc domain account. I think I am probably one of only a couple of people with the latter and I have paid the domain renewal fees for the last couple of times (a trifilling amount really) One only has to check out http://www.orpheusinternet.co.uk/email/ Orpheus also still provide full, unrestricted, newsgroup access via Gignews > Some webmail providers also provide POP and IMAP access, such as gmail. GMAIL!!! for goodness sake! -- Stuart Winsor Tools With A Mission sending tools across the world http://www.twam.co.uk/ From Stuartlists at orpheusinternet.co.uk Sun Jul 22 21:16:08 2018 From: Stuartlists at orpheusinternet.co.uk (lists) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2018 21:16:08 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients threadcut In-Reply-To: <7e4cd432-da5c-4acb-30e4-6b78a5959d5a@dotcodotukat.co.uk> References: <53160.91.85.218.30.1532098121.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <571aa57fd4styleguide@avisoft.f9.co.uk> <50053.91.85.218.30.1532253841.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <7e4cd432-da5c-4acb-30e4-6b78a5959d5a@dotcodotukat.co.uk> Message-ID: <571bc34567Stuartlists@orpheusinternet.co.uk> In article <7e4cd432-da5c-4acb-30e4-6b78a5959d5a at dotcodotukat.co.uk>, Vince M Hudd via Virtualacorn-list wrote: > On 22/07/18 11:04, Bob Ardler via Virtualacorn-list wrote: > > Sadly, the message from Paul Vigay (or successor?) and argonet was > > quite clear: webmail from now on. > In all honesty, I'd be absolutely amazed if Paul said anything of the > sort - So would I! > and I can't see Richard Brown (who now runs Orpheus) suggesting > something like that, either. Orpheus has always included mailboxes > accessed in the normal way as part of the service. When I moved back from Pipex to Orpheus, (I'd been with Argonet right up to latter days, when it was overrun with spam and jumped ship) Paul seemed quite happy to provide three separate user IDs on one account at no extra cost, so that different members of the family could fetch their mail independently. He implied that email accounts were "no big deal" and quite trivial to set up and manage. > I strongly suspect that you've misunderstood something that one of them > has said. I would second that. -- Stuart Winsor Tools With A Mission sending tools across the world http://www.twam.co.uk/ From Stuartlists at orpheusinternet.co.uk Sun Jul 22 21:39:59 2018 From: Stuartlists at orpheusinternet.co.uk (lists) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2018 21:39:59 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients In-Reply-To: <571aa57fd4styleguide@avisoft.f9.co.uk> References: <53160.91.85.218.30.1532098121.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <571aa57fd4styleguide@avisoft.f9.co.uk> Message-ID: <571bc5745cStuartlists@orpheusinternet.co.uk> In article <571aa57fd4styleguide at avisoft.f9.co.uk>, Martin via Virtualacorn-list wrote: > IMHO when away from your RISC OS machine but with access to a > browser, Webmail has its uses, but I personally would not like to use > it all the time. My opinion too. It's useful when I am away on holiday - !NetSurf on VA on a little Dell Lattitude 2110 but I only use it to check personal emails, mailing lists can wait till I get back home. -- Stuart Winsor Tools With A Mission sending tools across the world http://www.twam.co.uk/ From pnyoung at ormail.co.uk Sun Jul 22 21:48:57 2018 From: pnyoung at ormail.co.uk (Peter Young) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2018 21:48:57 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients In-Reply-To: <571bc5745cStuartlists@orpheusinternet.co.uk> References: <53160.91.85.218.30.1532098121.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <571aa57fd4styleguide@avisoft.f9.co.uk> <571bc5745cStuartlists@orpheusinternet.co.uk> Message-ID: <7046c61b57.pnyoung@pnyoung.ormail.co.uk> On 22 Jul 2018 lists via Virtualacorn-list wrote: > In article <571aa57fd4styleguide at avisoft.f9.co.uk>, > Martin via Virtualacorn-list > wrote: >> IMHO when away from your RISC OS machine but with access to a >> browser, Webmail has its uses, but I personally would not like to use >> it all the time. > My opinion too. It's useful when I am away on holiday - !NetSurf on VA on > a little Dell Lattitude 2110 but I only use it to check personal emails, > mailing lists can wait till I get back home. I have used Orpheus webmail when away, but it totally fouls up any formatting in a reply. What I do now is to use NetFetch and Messenger Pro while I'm away?on VRPC, with "delete all fetched mails" turned off, and bcc any replies I make to my own address. When I'm back I can save these messages as .eml files and import them into my MPro on this VRPC using ShareFS. Problem solved, go thou and do likewise! Best wishes, Peter. -- Peter Young (zfc Au) and family Prestbury, Cheltenham, Glos. GL52, England http://pnyoung.orpheusweb.co.uk pnyoung at ormail.co.uk From Stuartlists at orpheusinternet.co.uk Sun Jul 22 22:15:25 2018 From: Stuartlists at orpheusinternet.co.uk (lists) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2018 22:15:25 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients In-Reply-To: <7046c61b57.pnyoung@pnyoung.ormail.co.uk> References: <53160.91.85.218.30.1532098121.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <571aa57fd4styleguide@avisoft.f9.co.uk> <571bc5745cStuartlists@orpheusinternet.co.uk> <7046c61b57.pnyoung@pnyoung.ormail.co.uk> Message-ID: <571bc8b2a2Stuartlists@orpheusinternet.co.uk> In article <7046c61b57.pnyoung at pnyoung.ormail.co.uk>, Peter Young via Virtualacorn-list wrote: > I have used Orpheus webmail when away, but it totally fouls up any > formatting in a reply. What I do now is to use NetFetch and Messenger > Pro while I'm away#on VRPC, with "delete all fetched mails" turned off, > and bcc any replies I make to my own address. When I'm back I can save > these messages as .eml files and import them into my MPro on this VRPC > using ShareFS. Problem solved, go thou and do likewise! Yes. Whilst I check my emails I don't reply unless it is urgent that I do so. They are all then dealt with when I get back home, to !POPstar and !Pluto. -- Stuart Winsor Tools With A Mission sending tools across the world http://www.twam.co.uk/ From cvjazz at waitrose.com Sun Jul 22 23:34:29 2018 From: cvjazz at waitrose.com (Chris Newman) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2018 23:34:29 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients threadcut In-Reply-To: <7e4cd432-da5c-4acb-30e4-6b78a5959d5a@dotcodotukat.co.uk> References: <53160.91.85.218.30.1532098121.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <571aa57fd4styleguide@avisoft.f9.co.uk> <50053.91.85.218.30.1532253841.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <7e4cd432-da5c-4acb-30e4-6b78a5959d5a@dotcodotukat.co.uk> Message-ID: <571bcfeff9cvjazz@waitrose.com> In article <7e4cd432-da5c-4acb-30e4-6b78a5959d5a at dotcodotukat.co.uk>, Vince M Hudd via Virtualacorn-list wrote: > On 22/07/18 11:04, Bob Ardler via Virtualacorn-list wrote: > > Sadly, the message from Paul Vigay (or successor?) and argonet was > > quite clear: webmail from now on. > In all honesty, I'd be absolutely amazed if Paul said anything of the > sort - and I can't see Richard Brown (who now runs Orpheus) suggesting > something like that, either. Orpheus has always included mailboxes > accessed in the normal way as part of the service. > I strongly suspect that you've misunderstood something that one of them > has said. I concur. Knowing Paul Vigay well here in Portsmouth he was fanatical about cyber safety & always preferred downloading his mail to his machine(s) rather than using the web. I use Pluto on a RiscPC at home & Virtual Acorn when I'm away & that includes being on the other side of the world. When in foreign parts I log into webmail once so they know where I genuinely am & stop pestering me about safety then it's back to Pluto & Netfetch. I only check my accounts on the web now & again to check they haven't put something I really needed in the junk folder. I use PoP3 & set Netfetch to delete messages from the server after downloading. If you want a belt & braces approach you can leave them on the web to be reviewed later or downloaded to another device. What's not to like. -- Chris From ardler at argonet.co.uk Mon Jul 23 12:09:26 2018 From: ardler at argonet.co.uk (Bob Ardler) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2018 12:09:26 +0100 (BST) Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients threadcut Message-ID: <49366.91.85.218.30.1532344166.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> Clarification: Vince M Hudd wrote, re my claim that Paul or Richard or others said webmail from now on: > In all honesty, I'd be absolutely amazed if Paul said anything of the > sort - and I can't see Richard Brown (who now runs Orpheus) suggesting > something like that, either. Orpheus has always included mailboxes > accessed in the normal way as part of the service. > I strongly suspect that you've misunderstood something that one of > them has said. Dementiated memory prevents correct dates. Roughly: by late 80s was using a now-extinct browser &c on the Archimedes. Pluto arrived and helped greatly. Switch to 1st Iyonix was ok. On updated Iyonix email failed, Castle inaccessible by phone or snailmail. Phoned Argonet, and their solution was something unknown to me -- webmail, which they explained in detail. Am now used to webmail and shall stick to it. The intelligent notes from VMH, Druck, SW, PY & CN indicate knowledge & skill beyond this declining brain -- especially where RTFM is needed. (Those who know enough to write manuals seldom know what the dontknows need to know.) So it's webmail here, but long may Jonathan's and Martin's work flourish. (What did become of Jonathan?) Bob -- Islington North From Stuartlists at orpheusinternet.co.uk Mon Jul 23 14:29:40 2018 From: Stuartlists at orpheusinternet.co.uk (lists) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2018 14:29:40 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients threadcut In-Reply-To: <49366.91.85.218.30.1532344166.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> References: <49366.91.85.218.30.1532344166.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> Message-ID: <571c21e48aStuartlists@orpheusinternet.co.uk> In article <49366.91.85.218.30.1532344166.squirrel at email.orpheusnet.co.uk>, Bob Ardler via Virtualacorn-list wrote: > Am now used to webmail and shall stick to it. The intelligent notes > from VMH, Druck, SW, PY & CN indicate knowledge & skill beyond this > declining brain -- especially where RTFM is needed. (Those who know > enough to write manuals seldom know what the dontknows need to know.) > So it's webmail here, but long may Jonathan's and Martin's work > flourish. (What did become of Jonathan?) Jonathan continued with his principle interest, which was in producing speech on the computer, for some time after passing !Pluto on for further development to Martin. http://espeak.sourceforge.net/ The documentation for !Pluto is, with all due respect to Jonathan, a lttle rudimentary, consisting, as it does, of a number of text files. However Brian Bailey, a user, produced a much better, "proper" manual in !Ovation format and I have a draft copy here. -- Stuart Winsor Tools With A Mission sending tools across the world http://www.twam.co.uk/ From styleguide at avisoft.f9.co.uk Mon Jul 23 15:04:49 2018 From: styleguide at avisoft.f9.co.uk (Martin) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2018 15:04:49 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients threadcut In-Reply-To: <571c21e48aStuartlists@orpheusinternet.co.uk> References: <49366.91.85.218.30.1532344166.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <571c21e48aStuartlists@orpheusinternet.co.uk> Message-ID: <571c251c93styleguide@avisoft.f9.co.uk> On 23 Jul in article <571c21e48aStuartlists at orpheusinternet.co.uk>, lists via Virtualacorn-list wrote: > The documentation for !Pluto is, with all due respect to Jonathan, > a lttle rudimentary, consisting, as it does, of a number of text > files. The original documentation by Jonathan was indeed a number of text files. However, many years ago I took those and added vast amounts of information culled from internet postings and created a StrongHelp manual. Since I have had access to the Pluto sources it has had further updates, and from v3.06 it has been included with Pluto and is on the iconbar menu. The original text documents are no longer distributed. I know StrongHelp is not everyone's favourite, but it is small, fast, and enables one or many pages to be displayed, and instant searches to be done. It is the only complete and up-to-date documentation that I am aware of, and has a full alphabetic Index and a structured Contents. If I had time, I would complete my StrongHelp conversion facility: Anyone got any spare? I would also add that the Pluto developments I have done have only been possible because of the changes that Robert Sprowson has done, and the help in understanding C that he has given me. Martin -- Martin Avison using a British Iyonix running RISC OS 5 and the Pluto mail and newsreader From atdotcodotuk at dotcodotukat.co.uk Mon Jul 23 15:43:50 2018 From: atdotcodotuk at dotcodotukat.co.uk (Vince M Hudd) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2018 15:43:50 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients threadcut In-Reply-To: <571c251c93styleguide@avisoft.f9.co.uk> References: <49366.91.85.218.30.1532344166.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <571c21e48aStuartlists@orpheusinternet.co.uk> <571c251c93styleguide@avisoft.f9.co.uk> Message-ID: <790d3fdf-1314-89a3-84dd-d157262603f7@dotcodotukat.co.uk> On 23/07/2018 15:04, Martin via Virtualacorn-list wrote: [Pluto's documentation] This really belongs on the Pluto list - so I'll post it here and then re-post it there. I suggest anyone with any interest in Pluto subscribes and continues this discussion there: plutousers at yahoogroups.com (yuck!) > I know StrongHelp is not everyone's favourite, but it is small, fast, > and enables one or many pages to be displayed, and instant searches > to be done. It is the only complete and up-to-date documentation that > I am aware of, and has a full alphabetic Index and a structured > Contents. If I had time, I would complete my StrongHelp conversion > facility: Anyone got any spare? I'm not entirely familiar with the StrongHelp file format[1], but isn't it just a sort of mark up? If so, I wonder if something like WebChange can be used to convert individual pages to something like XML? I suggest XML because there does exist one and a half tools for converting from XML to other formats. One is Steve Fryatt's, and (IIRC) can convert from XML to various formats - including StrongHelp. The other is a half (well, tenth) written one of my own (which may or may not become part of WebChange, or a separate thing in its own right) which I aim to make more customisable, so it can theoretically go from XML to anything at all that it's possible to write a config/rules file for. (I'm holding off writing it fully until the WebChange manual is written - which I'm slowly working on in XML. Because of that time stuff you mentioned.) [1] I'm a StrongHelp loather, so I never use it for my own documentation[2], and only ever look at SH documentation for other stuff as a last resort [2] Shut up Ron, if you're reading this list. ;) -- Vince M Hudd Soft Rock Software - www.softrock.co.uk RISCOSitory - www.riscository.com From j.mccartney at blueyonder.co.uk Mon Jul 23 17:07:00 2018 From: j.mccartney at blueyonder.co.uk (John McCartney) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2018 17:07:00 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients In-Reply-To: <53160.91.85.218.30.1532098121.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> References: <53160.91.85.218.30.1532098121.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> Message-ID: <571c304c70j.mccartney@blueyonder.co.uk> In article <53160.91.85.218.30.1532098121.squirrel at email.orpheusnet.co.uk>, Bob Ardler via Virtualacorn-list wrote: > John McCartney wrote: re: > >> !NetFetch and !Messenger sit where Andrew's team put > >> them on the pinboard, but to email we just NetSurf > >> webmail, log in & do it all on Netsurf. > > That'll be why your e-mails look a mess when viewed (in > > my case) on Pluto. The threading is broken and quoting > > is discontinuous. In order to compose this reply, I've > > had to extensively edit your last email to make it more > > easily readable. > Well, same here with many others' emails. > (Broken-threading and continuous-quoting are terms beyond > my ken.) Ok. If this list accepts attachments, I'll take a snapshot of what your e-mail looks like in Pluto so that you can see the problems. Does the list accept attachments? > >> [...] group with 32ish members put 32ish addressees in > >> Cc, not Bcc. Most of them also quote in full > >> (including each Cc) every previous message on the > >> topic. Could be [...] caused by [...] smart phones on > >> the move being unable to do the fiddly bits. > > Your use of NetSurf and webmail doesn't seem to be able > > to cope with the fiddly bits either. It would help > > somewhat if you separated paragraphs with a double > > return instead of just indenting the first line. I've > > had to do that before getting Pluto to reformat so that > > your last two paragraphs don't end up as one. > OK, indent bad, double return good now added to > goodmanners. Splendid! Old dogs, new tricks eh, what? > Yonks ago Paul Vigay said no more Pluto, webmail now, use > your browser. Despite his many good points, Paul was (in my opinion) quite wrong in this matter. I only use web-mail in extremis. > Hence the NetSurfing, as the RiscOS FireFox doesn't work > here and Webster pages have weird layout. Andrew made > NetFetch pop up on RiscOS entry with multiple options > needing study & practice, so am sticking with the simple > way. Didn't realize it rattles Pluto. > Er, typed this days ago & clicked Save Draft instead of > Send. Dementia rules. I would have answered straight away but my Virgin Media Hub suffered a terminal decline last Tuesday and, due to lack of communication by VM, has only just been replaced this afternoon. John -- John McCartney j.mccartney at blueyonder.co.uk From atdotcodotuk at dotcodotukat.co.uk Mon Jul 23 19:25:19 2018 From: atdotcodotuk at dotcodotukat.co.uk (Vince M Hudd) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2018 19:25:19 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients In-Reply-To: <571c304c70j.mccartney@blueyonder.co.uk> References: <53160.91.85.218.30.1532098121.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <571c304c70j.mccartney@blueyonder.co.uk> Message-ID: <63547f05-d6dc-1964-4985-eb3413348596@dotcodotukat.co.uk> On 23/07/18 17:07, John McCartney via Virtualacorn-list wrote: > In article > <53160.91.85.218.30.1532098121.squirrel at email.orpheusnet.co.uk>, > Bob Ardler via Virtualacorn-list [...] >> Well, same here with many others' emails. >> (Broken-threading and continuous-quoting are terms beyond >> my ken.) > Ok. If this list accepts attachments, I'll take a snapshot > of what your e-mail looks like in Pluto so that you can > see the problems. > Does the list accept attachments? I can't remember the exact settings I've given it, but the answer should be no. And if I don't have it set correctly, and attachments can be posted, the sender will end up on my naughty list. So they'll be subject to a good telling off, and put on moderation - with the latter meaning their messages are likely to be delayed until I notice and approve them. i.e. don't post attachments. Better to bung an image up on some webspace somewhere and just post the link to it. There's also an upper size limit on messages - probably around 10kB. -- Vince M Hudd - Soft Rock Software - www.softrock.co.uk RISCOSitory - www.riscository.com From j.mccartney at blueyonder.co.uk Tue Jul 24 12:34:29 2018 From: j.mccartney at blueyonder.co.uk (John McCartney) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2018 12:34:29 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients In-Reply-To: <63547f05-d6dc-1964-4985-eb3413348596@dotcodotukat.co.uk> References: <53160.91.85.218.30.1532098121.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <571c304c70j.mccartney@blueyonder.co.uk> <63547f05-d6dc-1964-4985-eb3413348596@dotcodotukat.co.uk> Message-ID: <571c9b2f1dj.mccartney@blueyonder.co.uk> In article <63547f05-d6dc-1964-4985-eb3413348596 at dotcodotukat.co.uk>, Vince M Hudd via Virtualacorn-list wrote: > > Does the list accept attachments? > I can't remember the exact settings I've given it, but > the answer should be no. Ok. I can live with that. > And if I don't have it set correctly, and attachments can > be posted, the sender will end up on my naughty list. Oh, nooooo! The very thought of being on anyone's naughty list fills me with dread... :-) > So they'll be subject to a good telling off, and put on > moderation - with the latter meaning their messages are > likely to be delayed until I notice and approve them. > i.e. don't post attachments. Better to bung an image up > on some webspace somewhere and just post the link to it. I've just picked up a personal e-mail from Bob but am preoccupied with landscapers who have started today. I'll put images on Dropbox later today. John -- John McCartney j.mccartney at blueyonder.co.uk From dave at triffid.co.uk Tue Jul 24 19:53:30 2018 From: dave at triffid.co.uk (Dave Symes) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2018 19:53:30 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Shutdown problem VRPC and Windows Message-ID: <571cc36083dave@triffid.co.uk> I'm wondering if anyone else here has encountered this problem. Fay's computer is running Win 7 Pro and VRPC-Adjust SA and for the most part no particular problems. However occasionally on shutting down VRPC using either the Switcher Menu "Shutdown" or Ctrl+Shift+F12 VRPC shuts down, then the monitor screen goes black and that's it, as it seems to be frozen in that state. No mouse pointer, no keyboard action from a three fingered salute... Nada. Press and hold the front power switch on the computer to force a power off is the only exit from this freeze state. Worth noting, the W7 PC itself never has any trouble booting up or legit closing down, the above noted only happens occasionally when exiting VRPC. Any thoughts please. Thanks Dave -- Dave Triffid From bbailey at argonet.co.uk Wed Jul 25 10:29:42 2018 From: bbailey at argonet.co.uk (Brian) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2018 10:29:42 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Shutdown problem VRPC and Windows In-Reply-To: <571cc36083dave@triffid.co.uk> References: <571cc36083dave@triffid.co.uk> Message-ID: <571d139894bbailey@argonet.co.uk> In article <571cc36083dave at triffid.co.uk>, Dave Symes via Virtualacorn-list wrote: > I'm wondering if anyone else here has encountered this problem. > Fay's computer is running Win 7 Pro and VRPC-Adjust SA and for the most > part no particular problems. However occasionally on shutting down VRPC > using either the Switcher Menu "Shutdown" or Ctrl+Shift+F12 VRPC shuts > down, then the monitor screen goes black and that's it, as it seems to > be frozen in that state. > No mouse pointer, no keyboard action from a three fingered salute... > Nada. > Press and hold the front power switch on the computer to force a power > off is the only exit from this freeze state. > Worth noting, the W7 PC itself never has any trouble booting up or legit > closing down, the above noted only happens occasionally when exiting > VRPC. > Any thoughts please. Not sure that this is the slightest bit of help, Dave, but I have noticed some variability in the time 'lag' between changing from VRPC screen to Win 7 screen on shutdown. It certainly isn't instantaneous. Conversely, on VRPC startup from Win 7 I have had a 'seized' black screen, once or twice I believe, that I reported some time back. Just had to get rough with a reset boot from the power switch. Graphics card/memory problem perhaps? Dunno? Just a wild guess! Best wishes Brian From j.mccartney at blueyonder.co.uk Wed Jul 25 11:10:02 2018 From: j.mccartney at blueyonder.co.uk (John McCartney) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2018 10:10:02 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients In-Reply-To: <571c9b2f1dj.mccartney@blueyonder.co.uk> References: <53160.91.85.218.30.1532098121.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <571c304c70j.mccartney@blueyonder.co.uk> <63547f05-d6dc-1964-4985-eb3413348596@dotcodotukat.co.uk> <571c9b2f1dj.mccartney@blueyonder.co.uk> Message-ID: <571d1749f5j.mccartney@blueyonder.co.uk> In article <571c9b2f1dj.mccartney at blueyonder.co.uk>, John McCartney via Virtualacorn-list wrote: > I've just picked up a personal e-mail from Bob but am > preoccupied with landscapers who have started today. I'll > put images on Dropbox later today. Here's the link: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/dmh2vk6l1u77jdt/AADZGt_82hll1XDtpXzha-Y3a?dl=0 I'm assuming that everyone on this list can access Dropbox from Windows or a Mac. If you're reading this in RISC OS, change the final 0 (zero) to a 1 (one) so that it downloads in NetSurf as a ZIP file. For Bob's benefit, the red boxes in BrokenQuote show where Pluto loses the threading level colour after the first line of the paragraph. The black arrows indicate the presence of a single return instead of a double one. In BrokenThread, the arrows show where your posts appear without being linked to the one(s) you're replying to. From the headers in your posts, it seems that you've just copied and pasted the bits you want to refer to because there isn't a line starting with "In-Reply-To:" Even if you *are* using web mail, there is a button to generate a proper reply, at least there is in the few systems I've seen. I hope this clarifies things for you, Bob. John -- John McCartney j.mccartney at blueyonder.co.uk From ardler at argonet.co.uk Wed Jul 25 16:49:05 2018 From: ardler at argonet.co.uk (Bob Ardler) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2018 16:49:05 +0100 (BST) Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients Message-ID: <50064.91.85.218.30.1532533745.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> 3rd shot, as "Reply all" was rejected for "too many recipients": > John McCartney wrote: > >> I've just picked up a personal e-mail from Bob but am >> preoccupied with landscapers who have started today. I'll >> put images on Dropbox later today. > > Here's the link: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/dmh2vk6l1u77jdt/AADZGt_82hll1XDtpXzha-Y3a?dl=0 > > I'm assuming that everyone on this list can access Dropbox > from Windows or a Mac. If you're reading this in RISC OS, > change the final 0 (zero) to a 1 (one) so that it downloads > in NetSurf as a ZIP file. Couldn't see how to change 0 to 1 without a self-email so did that. > For Bob's benefit, the red boxes in BrokenQuote show where > Pluto loses the threading level colour after the first line > of the paragraph. The black arrows indicate the presence of > a single return instead of a double one. Caused by differences in line-length or the CR/LF thing? Loss of all but the first >s ocasionally happens here. My 5space inset newpara was to replace tabs and reduce scrolling. Didn't know it was a sin, shall incur blackarrow no more. > In BrokenThread, the arrows show where your posts appear > without being linked to the one(s) you're replying to. From > the headers in your posts, it seems that you've just copied > and pasted the bits you want to refer to because there > isn't a line starting with "In-Reply-To:" This may be a daft misunderstanding: one email in the thread was From: sender at ownadr, not senderviaVAlist, so just for this thread I used Compose instead of Reply, thinking that Subject:?Re: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients would continue the thread -- forgetting that Pluto etc handle threading by electronic tag. > Even if you *are* using web mail, there is a button to > generate a proper reply, at least there is in the few > systems I've seen. Yes, back to the Reply button used on all other threads. No: seems the "Reply all" button's needed here. > I hope this clarifies things for you, Bob. Everything except what causes quote-mechanisms to clash. Thanks for your trouble. Hope landscaping flourishes. Bob From pnyoung at ormail.co.uk Wed Jul 25 19:08:54 2018 From: pnyoung at ormail.co.uk (Peter Young) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2018 19:08:54 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients In-Reply-To: <50064.91.85.218.30.1532533745.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> References: <50064.91.85.218.30.1532533745.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> Message-ID: <4f21431d57.pnyoung@pnyoung.ormail.co.uk> On 25 Jul 2018 Bob Ardler via Virtualacorn-list wrote: > 3rd shot, as "Reply all" was rejected for > "too many recipients": >> John McCartney wrote: >> >>> I've just picked up a personal e-mail from Bob but am >>> preoccupied with landscapers who have started today. I'll >>> put images on Dropbox later today. >> >> Here's the link: > https://www.dropbox.com/sh/dmh2vk6l1u77jdt/AADZGt_82hll1XDtpXzha-Y3a?dl=0 >> >> I'm assuming that everyone on this list can access Dropbox >> from Windows or a Mac. If you're reading this in RISC OS, >> change the final 0 (zero) to a 1 (one) so that it downloads >> in NetSurf as a ZIP file. > Couldn't see how to change 0 to 1 without a self-email so > did that. Save the message into StrongED (or maybe Zap), change the "0" into "1" and double-click the line. Bob's your uncle. Best wishes, Peter. -- Peter Young (zfc Au) and family Prestbury, Cheltenham, Glos. GL52, England http://pnyoung.orpheusweb.co.uk pnyoung at ormail.co.uk From atdotcodotuk at dotcodotukat.co.uk Wed Jul 25 21:21:36 2018 From: atdotcodotuk at dotcodotukat.co.uk (Vince M Hudd) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2018 21:21:36 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients In-Reply-To: <50064.91.85.218.30.1532533745.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> References: <50064.91.85.218.30.1532533745.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> Message-ID: <422246c8-84cb-9392-05a9-2f20d6196b87@dotcodotukat.co.uk> On 25/07/18 16:49, Bob Ardler via Virtualacorn-list wrote: > 3rd shot, as "Reply all" was rejected for "too many recipients": It wasn't rejected, it was held by the list server for my attention/approval - you've pre-empted that by reposting separately, though. This brings the thread full circle - look at the subject line and my original post: http://riscository.co.uk/pipermail/virtualacorn-list_riscository.co.uk/2018-July/002696.html So that's ironic. 8) -- Vince M Hudd - Soft Rock Software - www.softrock.co.uk RISCOSitory - www.riscository.com From ardler at argonet.co.uk Thu Jul 26 11:47:23 2018 From: ardler at argonet.co.uk (Bob Ardler) Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2018 11:47:23 +0100 (BST) Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients Message-ID: <49511.91.85.218.30.1532602043.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> Peter Young wrote: re: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/dmh2vk6l1u77jdt/AADZGt_82hll1XDtpXzha-Y3a?dl=0 >>> If you're reading this in RISC OS, >>> change the final 0 (zero) to a 1 (one) so that it downloads >>> in NetSurf as a ZIP file. > >> Couldn't see how to change 0 to 1 without a self-email so >> did that. > > Save the message into StrongED (or maybe Zap), change the > "0" into "1" and double-click the line. Bob's your uncle. Saving into Zap required saving as HTML from Zap. Zap didn't put the URL after the http:// so had to move it. Simpler than the email route. Thanks for the tip. Re the original VMH thread: clicking "Reply" here replies only to the sender you're reading; "Reply all" replies to sender plus list and causes "held for moderation" as Vince M Hudd noted. So you enter the list address by hand, which, if I understand J McC, snaps the thread. Yer carnt win. Bob From atdotcodotuk at dotcodotukat.co.uk Thu Jul 26 12:58:07 2018 From: atdotcodotuk at dotcodotukat.co.uk (Vince Hudd) Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2018 12:58:07 +0100 (BST) Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients In-Reply-To: <49511.91.85.218.30.1532602043.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> References: <49511.91.85.218.30.1532602043.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> Message-ID: <356715746.181632.1532606287339@email.1and1.co.uk> On 26 July 2018 at 11:47 Bob Ardler via Virtualacorn-list wrote: > Re the original VMH thread: clicking "Reply" here replies > only to the sender you're reading; "Reply all" replies to > sender plus list and causes "held for moderation" as Vince > M Hudd noted. So you enter the list address by hand, which, > if I understand J McC, snaps the thread. Yer carnt win. What this shows is that webmail - whether that's in general, or the specific implementation you are using - is somewhat lacking as a day to day email service. This is why a proper email client such as Pluto is a far better way to read email. Out of interest, I've just logged into the webmail service provided by my host to see how it handles list posts, and it showed a similar limitation you describe - though not quite the same. Ultimately, though, it boiled down to the same result of a reply either being sent directly to you, or to both you and the list (the Reply-all). But there is a quick fix in my case which may or may not also work for you/your webmail service: Hit reply-all, then delete the personal recipient from the To field, leaving only the list as a recipient. Indeed, this reply is being composed via my webmail service having done exactly that. From ardler at argonet.co.uk Thu Jul 26 13:34:17 2018 From: ardler at argonet.co.uk (Bob Ardler) Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2018 13:34:17 +0100 (BST) Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients In-Reply-To: <356715746.181632.1532606287339@email.1and1.co.uk> References: <49511.91.85.218.30.1532602043.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <356715746.181632.1532606287339@email.1and1.co.uk> Message-ID: <49746.91.85.218.30.1532608457.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> Vince M Hudd wrote: re: >> Re the original VMH thread: clicking "Reply" here replies >> only to the sender you're reading; "Reply all" replies to >> sender plus list and causes "held for moderation" as Vince >> M Hudd noted. So you enter the list address by hand, which, >> if I understand J McC, snaps the thread. Yer carnt win. > What this shows is that webmail - whether that's in general, or the > specific implementation you are using - is somewhat lacking as a day to > day email service. This is why a proper email client such as Pluto is a > far better way to read email. > > Out of interest, I've just logged into the webmail service provided > by my host to see how it handles list posts, and it showed a similar > limitation you describe - though not quite the same. Ultimately, > though, it boiled down to the same result of a reply either being > sent directly to you, or to both you and the list (the Reply-all). > > But there is a quick fix in my case which may or may not also work for > you/your webmail service: Hit reply-all, then delete the personal > recipient from the To field, leaving only the list as a recipient. > > Indeed, this reply is being composed via my webmail service having done > exactly that. That's weird: a blank "To:" and a "Cc:" to oneself via VAlist etc. Am trying it here. Even if it works, it doesn't explain why "Reply:" has worked in the past, with no "Multiple recipients" message. Well, it didn't -- ERROR: You have not filled in the "To" field. Moved the Cc addr into To:, trying again. From atdotcodotuk at dotcodotukat.co.uk Thu Jul 26 14:17:55 2018 From: atdotcodotuk at dotcodotukat.co.uk (Vince M Hudd) Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2018 14:17:55 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients In-Reply-To: <49746.91.85.218.30.1532608457.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> References: <49511.91.85.218.30.1532602043.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <356715746.181632.1532606287339@email.1and1.co.uk> <49746.91.85.218.30.1532608457.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> Message-ID: <90b7e045-eab8-a98c-bdb9-1d023b9bc878@dotcodotukat.co.uk> On 26/07/2018 13:34, Bob Ardler via Virtualacorn-list wrote: [My suggested work-around for replying just to the list via webmail - which works on my host's webmail, but might not elsewhere] > Even if it works, it doesn't explain why "Reply:" > has worked in the past, with no "Multiple recipients" message. If you've raised that point before, I haven't answered it because I haven't noticed it - sorry. I suspect the change occurred when I altered the list settings to cope with DMARC, a system designed to prevent email spoofing. There's a good chance that it worked for you up until that point - and as a result of that *necessary* change, it now doesn't. -- Vince M Hudd Soft Rock Software - www.softrock.co.uk RISCOSitory - www.riscository.com From ardler at argonet.co.uk Fri Jul 27 09:29:18 2018 From: ardler at argonet.co.uk (Bob Ardler) Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2018 09:29:18 +0100 (BST) Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients In-Reply-To: <90b7e045-eab8-a98c-bdb9-1d023b9bc878@dotcodotukat.co.uk> References: <49511.91.85.218.30.1532602043.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <356715746.181632.1532606287339@email.1and1.co.uk> <49746.91.85.218.30.1532608457.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <90b7e045-eab8-a98c-bdb9-1d023b9bc878@dotcodotukat.co.uk> Message-ID: <49307.91.85.218.30.1532680158.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> Vince M Hudd wrote: Re: >> why "Reply:" >> has worked in the past, with no "Multiple recipients" message. > [snip] > > I suspect the change occurred when I altered the list settings to cope > with DMARC, a system designed to prevent email spoofing. There's a good > chance that it worked for you up until that point - and as a result of > that *necessary* change, it now doesn't. Ah, am slow & getting slower: hadn't connected the items: > Vince M Hudd > Soft Rock Software - www.softrock.co.uk > RISCOSitory - www.riscository.com > Hosted by RISCOSitory/Soft Rock Software > http://www.riscository.com/mailing-lists/ So the complexity of modern programming replaces the old American aintbrokedontfixit epigram with "fix-this-bust-that, cant-be-helped, thats-the-world-today". No, am definitely not complaining. Shall stick to webmail and replutonate only should non-list email require it. Thanks, Vince, for the explanation. From dave at triffid.co.uk Fri Jul 27 11:31:43 2018 From: dave at triffid.co.uk (Dave Symes) Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2018 11:31:43 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients In-Reply-To: <49307.91.85.218.30.1532680158.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> References: <49511.91.85.218.30.1532602043.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <356715746.181632.1532606287339@email.1and1.co.uk> <49746.91.85.218.30.1532608457.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <90b7e045-eab8-a98c-bdb9-1d023b9bc878@dotcodotukat.co.uk> <49307.91.85.218.30.1532680158.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> Message-ID: <571e20f213dave@triffid.co.uk> In article <49307.91.85.218.30.1532680158.squirrel at email.orpheusnet.co.uk>, Bob Ardler via Virtualacorn-list wrote: [Snippy] > No, am definitely not complaining. Shall stick to webmail > and replutonate only should non-list email require it. > Thanks, Vince, for the explanation. Obviously a given, each to their own preferences... But... I have found this thread to be somewhat interesting and a bit weird... Yes as has been noted WebMail has its uses, and even I use it now and again, but to use Webmail as the primary device for internet mail seems very masochistic... particularly when there are excellent and even adequate Mail client apps with far far better facilities than ever found in a WebMail thing... Pluto, MessengerPro, Thunderbird to name just a few. If I scratch my head... anymore, I'll cover my keyboard in dandruff. ;-) Dave -- Dave Triffid From atdotcodotuk at dotcodotukat.co.uk Fri Jul 27 10:29:37 2018 From: atdotcodotuk at dotcodotukat.co.uk (Vince M Hudd) Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2018 10:29:37 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients In-Reply-To: <49307.91.85.218.30.1532680158.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> References: <49511.91.85.218.30.1532602043.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <356715746.181632.1532606287339@email.1and1.co.uk> <49746.91.85.218.30.1532608457.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <90b7e045-eab8-a98c-bdb9-1d023b9bc878@dotcodotukat.co.uk> <49307.91.85.218.30.1532680158.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> Message-ID: <50e14c71-acaa-177f-4bee-4ccc0ee0595a@dotcodotukat.co.uk> On 27/07/18 09:29, Bob Ardler via Virtualacorn-list wrote: > Vince M Hudd wrote: [On why what used to work for Bob now doesn't - caused by the changes for DMARC] > So the complexity of modern programming replaces the old > American aintbrokedontfixit epigram with "fix-this-bust-that, > cant-be-helped, thats-the-world-today". Except in this case (and countless other mailing lists) it wasn't a simple as that. Things *were* broken, and needed to be fixed. The way email works was flawed: it left open a gaping wide hole that spammers and fraudsters could easily exploit. Steps are being taken to deal with that, such as DMARC. That in turn meant this list and all those others had to be changed, unless they wanted to be broken by DMARC. If this causes problems for you, it's because you are using a system for email that has functional limitations. Historically, webmail was designed simply as a web-based means to access a normal mailbox using IMAP - but being web-based it's exactly like just about every other web-based alternative to a proper desktop application: greatly limited by comparison, both in speed and in features. If you wish to continue using webmail, that's entirely up to you - but when it doesn't work or doesn't do what you expect, remember that it's *your choice* to use something that just isn't up to the job. -- Vince M Hudd - Soft Rock Software - www.softrock.co.uk RISCOSitory - www.riscository.com From steffen at huber-net.de Fri Jul 27 22:21:48 2018 From: steffen at huber-net.de (Steffen Huber) Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2018 23:21:48 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients In-Reply-To: <571e20f213dave@triffid.co.uk> References: <49511.91.85.218.30.1532602043.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <356715746.181632.1532606287339@email.1and1.co.uk> <49746.91.85.218.30.1532608457.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <90b7e045-eab8-a98c-bdb9-1d023b9bc878@dotcodotukat.co.uk> <49307.91.85.218.30.1532680158.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <571e20f213dave@triffid.co.uk> Message-ID: <330061398.68209.1532726509030@communicator.strato.de> > Dave Symes via Virtualacorn-list wrote: > > Yes as has been noted WebMail has its uses, and even I use it now and > again, but to use Webmail as the primary device for internet mail seems > very masochistic... particularly when there are excellent and even > adequate Mail client apps with far far better facilities than ever found > in a WebMail thing... > Pluto, MessengerPro, Thunderbird to name just a few. I fear that, for modern WebMail systems, it turns out the WebMail is at least as powerful as Pluto and MessengerPro. And IIRC, Pluto is still tied to POP3 which is a nightmare if used from more than one device. At least my WebMail application is able to properly support the various character encodings, something MessengerPro still refuses to do. Oh, and it can be accessed with strong encryption. Steffen -- Steffen Huber LambdaComm System ? Welcome to Trollinger Country steffen at huber-net.de Private homepage http://www.huber-net.de/ RISC OS Blog http://riscosblog.huber-net.de/ From Stuartlists at orpheusinternet.co.uk Fri Jul 27 23:21:43 2018 From: Stuartlists at orpheusinternet.co.uk (lists) Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2018 23:21:43 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients In-Reply-To: <330061398.68209.1532726509030@communicator.strato.de> References: <49511.91.85.218.30.1532602043.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <356715746.181632.1532606287339@email.1and1.co.uk> <49746.91.85.218.30.1532608457.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <90b7e045-eab8-a98c-bdb9-1d023b9bc878@dotcodotukat.co.uk> <49307.91.85.218.30.1532680158.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <571e20f213dave@triffid.co.uk> <330061398.68209.1532726509030@communicator.strato.de> Message-ID: <571e61f28aStuartlists@orpheusinternet.co.uk> In article <330061398.68209.1532726509030 at communicator.strato.de>, Steffen Huber via Virtualacorn-list wrote: > I fear that, for modern WebMail systems, it turns out the WebMail is > at least as powerful as Pluto and MessengerPro. And IIRC, Pluto is > still tied to POP3 which is a nightmare if used from more than one > device. !Pluto is a reading/sending application and is tied only to whatever application is used to actually fetch mail from a server, or despatch to a server. In my case I use !POPstar which, whilst a POP3 client, can be configured to leave mail on the server after a fetch if required. -- Stuart Winsor Tools With A Mission sending tools across the world http://www.twam.co.uk/ From cvjazz at waitrose.com Sat Jul 28 00:20:00 2018 From: cvjazz at waitrose.com (Chris Newman) Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2018 00:20:00 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients In-Reply-To: <571e61f28aStuartlists@orpheusinternet.co.uk> References: <49511.91.85.218.30.1532602043.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <356715746.181632.1532606287339@email.1and1.co.uk> <49746.91.85.218.30.1532608457.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <90b7e045-eab8-a98c-bdb9-1d023b9bc878@dotcodotukat.co.uk> <49307.91.85.218.30.1532680158.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <571e20f213dave@triffid.co.uk> <330061398.68209.1532726509030@communicator.strato.de> <571e61f28aStuartlists@orpheusinternet.co.uk> Message-ID: <571e6748d1cvjazz@waitrose.com> In article <571e61f28aStuartlists at orpheusinternet.co.uk>, lists via Virtualacorn-list wrote: > In article <330061398.68209.1532726509030 at communicator.strato.de>, > Steffen Huber via Virtualacorn-list > wrote: > > I fear that, for modern WebMail systems, it turns out the WebMail is > > at least as powerful as Pluto and MessengerPro. And IIRC, Pluto is > > still tied to POP3 which is a nightmare if used from more than one > > device. > !Pluto is a reading/sending application and is tied only to whatever > application is used to actually fetch mail from a server, or despatch to a > server. In my case I use !POPstar which, whilst a POP3 client, can be > configured to leave mail on the server after a fetch if required. Ditto with Netfetch/Hermes -- Chris From steffen at huber-net.de Sat Jul 28 01:50:09 2018 From: steffen at huber-net.de (Steffen Huber) Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2018 02:50:09 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients In-Reply-To: <571e61f28aStuartlists@orpheusinternet.co.uk> References: <49511.91.85.218.30.1532602043.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <356715746.181632.1532606287339@email.1and1.co.uk> <49746.91.85.218.30.1532608457.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <90b7e045-eab8-a98c-bdb9-1d023b9bc878@dotcodotukat.co.uk> <49307.91.85.218.30.1532680158.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <571e20f213dave@triffid.co.uk> <330061398.68209.1532726509030@communicator.strato.de> <571e61f28aStuartlists@orpheusinternet.co.uk> Message-ID: <900409356.68849.1532739009812@communicator.strato.de> > lists via Virtualacorn-list wrote: > > > In article <330061398.68209.1532726509030 at communicator.strato.de>, > Steffen Huber via Virtualacorn-list > wrote: > > I fear that, for modern WebMail systems, it turns out the WebMail is > > at least as powerful as Pluto and MessengerPro. And IIRC, Pluto is > > still tied to POP3 which is a nightmare if used from more than one > > device. > > !Pluto is a reading/sending application and is tied only to whatever > application is used to actually fetch mail from a server, or despatch to a > server. In my case I use !POPstar which, whilst a POP3 client, can be > configured to leave mail on the server after a fetch if required. "Leaving mail on the server" is just not enough. I need to sort mail into folders. I need to have the same read/unread state across all devices. If I delete a mail on one device, it should be also deleted on the server. In short: I need IMAP. Technically, in Pluto's current state of handling fetching/sending from/to the server, it is impossible to properly support IMAP. I guess it is unlikely that someone will implement it in the near future. I used Messenger Pro for quite a while, and mostly liked it (especially its mailing list support and the seamless integration of mail and news). However, it is firmly stuck in the 90s. While - in contrast to Pluto - it supports IMAP, it has reportedly big performance issues when dealing with big mailboxes (mine is over 10 GiB). And it has broken encoding handling (last time I looked). And, IIRC, the server connector still uses the completely outdated SecureSockets module. If NetSurf gains enough JavaScript capabilities, it will immediately become the premier RISC OS email solution. This is really sad considering that both Messenger Pro and Pluto were ahead of the PC competition in the early days. Steffen -- Steffen Huber LambdaComm System ? Welcome to Trollinger Country steffen at huber-net.de Private homepage http://www.huber-net.de/ RISC OS Blog http://riscosblog.huber-net.de/ From jn.ml.vac.83 at wingsandbeaks.org.uk Sat Jul 28 09:40:08 2018 From: jn.ml.vac.83 at wingsandbeaks.org.uk (Jeremy Nicoll - ml VA) Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2018 09:40:08 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients In-Reply-To: <330061398.68209.1532726509030@communicator.strato.de> References: <49511.91.85.218.30.1532602043.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <356715746.181632.1532606287339@email.1and1.co.uk> <49746.91.85.218.30.1532608457.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <90b7e045-eab8-a98c-bdb9-1d023b9bc878@dotcodotukat.co.uk> <49307.91.85.218.30.1532680158.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <571e20f213dave@triffid.co.uk> <330061398.68209.1532726509030@communicator.strato.de> Message-ID: <721bddb15162eace05dac8e051abd052@wingsandbeaks.org.uk> On 2018-07-27 22:21, Steffen Huber via Virtualacorn-list wrote: >> Dave Symes via Virtualacorn-list >> wrote: >> >> Yes as has been noted WebMail has its uses, and even I use it now and >> again, but to use Webmail as the primary device for internet mail >> seems >> very masochistic... particularly when there are excellent and even >> adequate Mail client apps with far far better facilities than ever >> found >> in a WebMail thing... >> Pluto, MessengerPro, Thunderbird to name just a few. > > I fear that, for modern WebMail systems, it turns out the WebMail is > at least as powerful as Pluto and MessengerPro... Yes. I use two WebmMail systems - RoundCube (which is open source and many mail providers use), & fastmail.com's own/proprietary system. The latter looks nice and is very fast (you can easily forget you're using a web-based thing) and its searching and filtering capabilities are just as good as a local client. The things I miss in both of these are: - you can't edit the contents of a received mail (eg to change the subject line to something meaningful, or adjust the threading) - that they don't also handle nntp news. -- Jeremy Nicoll - my opinions are my own From atdotcodotuk at dotcodotukat.co.uk Sat Jul 28 12:04:32 2018 From: atdotcodotuk at dotcodotukat.co.uk (Vince M Hudd) Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2018 12:04:32 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Webmail vs a dedicated email client + POP3 vs IMAP (Was: Multiple recipients) In-Reply-To: <571e61f28aStuartlists@orpheusinternet.co.uk> References: <49511.91.85.218.30.1532602043.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <356715746.181632.1532606287339@email.1and1.co.uk> <49746.91.85.218.30.1532608457.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <90b7e045-eab8-a98c-bdb9-1d023b9bc878@dotcodotukat.co.uk> <49307.91.85.218.30.1532680158.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <571e20f213dave@triffid.co.uk> <330061398.68209.1532726509030@communicator.strato.de> <571e61f28aStuartlists@orpheusinternet.co.uk> Message-ID: <972f14de-7eaa-3ab1-5c98-ef404b697d0a@dotcodotukat.co.uk> On 27/07/18 23:21, lists via Virtualacorn-list wrote: > In article <330061398.68209.1532726509030 at communicator.strato.de>, > Steffen Huber via Virtualacorn-list > wrote: >> I fear that, for modern WebMail systems, it turns out the WebMail is >> at least as powerful as Pluto and MessengerPro. While this is almost certainly true in some cases - particularly where the webmail system is one of the primary products to draw people in to the provider's services, such as Google and Gmail[1]. However, the webmail offerings I've seen provided by ISPs to their customers tend to be somewhat more basic. I believe it is something more along those lines that Bob is using. [1] I have a gmail address which only sees very limited use, and I access it from my desktop using IMAP. I don't see the webby interface, so I don't really know what it's like - but despite my general dislike of Google, their developers are pretty damned good at what they do, so I imagine it's a pretty good system. >> And IIRC, Pluto is still tied to POP3 which is a nightmare if used from more than one >> device. > !Pluto is a reading/sending application and is tied only to whatever > application is used to actually fetch mail from a server, or despatch to a > server. That pretty much ties it to POP3 for receiving emails, as Steffen said. For it to be able to handle IMAP, it would pretty much have to speak directly to the mail server for almost every action it carries out on the contents of the mailbox. > In my case I use !POPstar which, whilst a POP3 client, can be > configured to leave mail on the server after a fetch if required. Before I switched to using IMAP I did similar, but it was always a flawed approach. -- Vince M Hudd - Soft Rock Software - www.softrock.co.uk RISCOSitory - www.riscository.com From druck at druck.org.uk Sun Jul 29 09:31:21 2018 From: druck at druck.org.uk (David J. Ruck) Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2018 09:31:21 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients In-Reply-To: <900409356.68849.1532739009812@communicator.strato.de> References: <49511.91.85.218.30.1532602043.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <356715746.181632.1532606287339@email.1and1.co.uk> <49746.91.85.218.30.1532608457.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <90b7e045-eab8-a98c-bdb9-1d023b9bc878@dotcodotukat.co.uk> <49307.91.85.218.30.1532680158.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <571e20f213dave@triffid.co.uk> <330061398.68209.1532726509030@communicator.strato.de> <571e61f28aStuartlists@orpheusinternet.co.uk> <900409356.68849.1532739009812@communicator.strato.de> Message-ID: On 28/07/2018 01:50, Steffen Huber via Virtualacorn-list wrote: > "Leaving mail on the server" is just not enough. I need to sort > mail into folders. I need to have the same read/unread state > across all devices. If I delete a mail on one device, it should be > also deleted on the server. In short: I need IMAP. Technically, > in Pluto's current state of handling fetching/sending from/to the > server, it is impossible to properly support IMAP. I guess it is > unlikely that someone will implement it in the near future. > > I used Messenger Pro for quite a while, and mostly liked it > (especially its mailing list support and the seamless integration > of mail and news). However, it is firmly stuck in the 90s. > While - in contrast to Pluto - it supports IMAP, it has reportedly > big performance issues when dealing with big mailboxes (mine is > over 10 GiB). And it has broken encoding handling (last time > I looked). And, IIRC, the server connector still uses the > completely outdated SecureSockets module. The obvious solution would be to set up a Linux Raspberry Pi as a local mail server, which downloads email from your ISP and shares it via IMAP to all clients. As it's local SecureSockets isn't needed from RISC OS, but a VPN can be set up to allow external secure access from your mobile devices. As this is a VA list, there may be a PC IMAP sever which could do the same, but I haven't looked. > If NetSurf gains enough JavaScript capabilities, it will > immediately become the premier RISC OS email solution. This > is really sad considering that both Messenger Pro and > Pluto were ahead of the PC competition in the early days. I've still not come across any webmail service which is a patch on a dedicated email program. Cheers ---David -- Email: druck at druck.org.uk Phone: +44-(0)7974 108301 From steffen at huber-net.de Tue Jul 31 15:49:44 2018 From: steffen at huber-net.de (Steffen Huber) Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2018 16:49:44 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients In-Reply-To: References: <49511.91.85.218.30.1532602043.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <356715746.181632.1532606287339@email.1and1.co.uk> <49746.91.85.218.30.1532608457.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <90b7e045-eab8-a98c-bdb9-1d023b9bc878@dotcodotukat.co.uk> <49307.91.85.218.30.1532680158.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <571e20f213dave@triffid.co.uk> <330061398.68209.1532726509030@communicator.strato.de> <571e61f28aStuartlists@orpheusinternet.co.uk> <900409356.68849.1532739009812@communicator.strato.de> Message-ID: <1840513606.181910.1533048584132@communicator.strato.de> > "David J. Ruck via Virtualacorn-list" wrote [snip] > The obvious solution would be to set up a Linux Raspberry Pi as a local > mail server, which downloads email from your ISP and shares it via IMAP > to all clients. As it's local SecureSockets isn't needed from RISC OS, > but a VPN can be set up to allow external secure access from your mobile > devices. > > As this is a VA list, there may be a PC IMAP sever which could do the > same, but I haven't looked. Unfortunately, this "obvious solution" only solves - despite the significant install and management overhead it creates - one single problem: Messenger Pro's insecureness. It does not magically allow Pluto to sensibly communicate with IMAP, and it does not solve the slowness of Messenger Pro handling large IMAP mailboxes, and it does not solve Messenger Pro's broken encoding handling. There are a few Qt-based open source email clients, maybe it would be worth improving the Qt port to make those really usable. Or maybe add secure IMAP and SMTP to TapirMail. > > If NetSurf gains enough JavaScript capabilities, it will > > immediately become the premier RISC OS email solution. This > > is really sad considering that both Messenger Pro and > > Pluto were ahead of the PC competition in the early days. > > I've still not come across any webmail service which is a patch on a > dedicated email program. What "dedicated email program" do you (or anyone reading this!) favour? I am in a seemingly constant search for something sensible. Things I tried include Messenger Pro (Windows), Opera Mail, Foxmail, Mailbird, eM Client, Pegasus Mail, Claws, Thunderbird and Columba. Claws is my favourite, but still far from ideal. Oh, and if you know a good client for Android... Steffen -- Steffen Huber LambdaComm System ? Welcome to Trollinger Country steffen at huber-net.de Private homepage http://www.huber-net.de/ RISC OS Blog http://riscosblog.huber-net.de/ From dave at triffid.co.uk Mon Jul 2 17:46:26 2018 From: dave at triffid.co.uk (Dave Symes) Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2018 17:46:26 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Boot problem In-Reply-To: <5710543d34cvjazz@waitrose.com> References: <570f6dd94acvjazz@waitrose.com> <20180628215623.C36B421D7A@outbound-queue-adx-1.mail.thdo.gradwell.net> <5710543d34cvjazz@waitrose.com> Message-ID: <5711635a57dave@triffid.co.uk> In article <5710543d34cvjazz at waitrose.com>, Chris Newman via Virtualacorn-list wrote: [Snippy] > It took a while to get A Round Tuiit as I have been taking advantage of > the hot weather & doing some repairs to our ancient conservatory wood > work. Dig out a bit, fill a bit, paint a bit. Then there's the ages you > have to wait for things to set & dry. What fun. I had to replace some > ancient hinges. The originals were packed out with pieces cut from a > Wills Woodbine fag packet (anyone remember them). Chiselit, Bodgit & > Leggit had obviously cut the holes too big. Modern hinges are slightly > bigger than the originals & the screw holes don't line up. More filling > & sanding. Hey ho! Reading the above I have to asume you are a mere DIYer!... Dave -- Dave Triffid From cvjazz at waitrose.com Mon Jul 2 22:02:05 2018 From: cvjazz at waitrose.com (Chris Newman) Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2018 22:02:05 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Boot problem In-Reply-To: <5711635a57dave@triffid.co.uk> References: <570f6dd94acvjazz@waitrose.com> <20180628215623.C36B421D7A@outbound-queue-adx-1.mail.thdo.gradwell.net> <5710543d34cvjazz@waitrose.com> <5711635a57dave@triffid.co.uk> Message-ID: <57117ac18dcvjazz@waitrose.com> In article <5711635a57dave at triffid.co.uk>, Dave Symes via Virtualacorn-list wrote: > In article <5710543d34cvjazz at waitrose.com>, > Chris Newman via Virtualacorn-list > wrote: > [Snippy] > > It took a while to get A Round Tuiit as I have been taking advantage of > > the hot weather & doing some repairs to our ancient conservatory wood > > work. Dig out a bit, fill a bit, paint a bit. Then there's the ages you > > have to wait for things to set & dry. What fun. I had to replace some > > ancient hinges. The originals were packed out with pieces cut from a > > Wills Woodbine fag packet (anyone remember them). Chiselit, Bodgit & > > Leggit had obviously cut the holes too big. Modern hinges are slightly > > bigger than the originals & the screw holes don't line up. More filling > > & sanding. Hey ho! > Reading the above I have to asume you are a mere DIYer!... Mere being the operative word, methinks. -- Chris From dave at triffid.co.uk Tue Jul 3 07:54:55 2018 From: dave at triffid.co.uk (Dave Symes) Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2018 07:54:55 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Boot problem In-Reply-To: <57117ac18dcvjazz@waitrose.com> References: <570f6dd94acvjazz@waitrose.com> <20180628215623.C36B421D7A@outbound-queue-adx-1.mail.thdo.gradwell.net> <5710543d34cvjazz@waitrose.com> <5711635a57dave@triffid.co.uk> <57117ac18dcvjazz@waitrose.com> Message-ID: <5711b108a1dave@triffid.co.uk> In article <57117ac18dcvjazz at waitrose.com>, Chris Newman via Virtualacorn-list wrote: > In article <5711635a57dave at triffid.co.uk>, > Dave Symes via Virtualacorn-list > wrote: > > In article <5710543d34cvjazz at waitrose.com>, > > Chris Newman via Virtualacorn-list > > wrote: > > [Snippy] > > > It took a while to get A Round Tuiit as I have been taking advantage > > > of the hot weather & doing some repairs to our ancient conservatory > > > wood work. Dig out a bit, fill a bit, paint a bit. Then there's the > > > ages you have to wait for things to set & dry. What fun. I had to > > > replace some ancient hinges. The originals were packed out with > > > pieces cut from a Wills Woodbine fag packet (anyone remember them). > > > Chiselit, Bodgit & Leggit had obviously cut the holes too big. > > > Modern hinges are slightly bigger than the originals & the screw > > > holes don't line up. More filling & sanding. Hey ho! > > Reading the above I have to asume you are a mere DIYer!... > Mere being the operative word, methinks. > Chris ;-) Small apology, didn't intend it to appear so pejorative... (Maybe) ;-) Having been a Building construction and maintenance pro for over 50 years, and 'wunce' upon a time the Grumpmaster, I sometimes still bristle at DIYer comments. :-) (My bad). Dave FWIW. Back in the days, an old fag packet whatever brand was a most useful thing to have in your tool box. 1) To contain the fags, then when empty... 2) To use for hinge and lock shims, etc. 3) To write material(x) lists and dims on. 4) If the fags packet had a loose foil liner... And... If some careless (person) blew a fuse (No one carried spares) the foil liner could be rolled around the blown fuse cartridge and put in to temporarily replace the fuse... Or twist rolled to put in a fuse box. Yes I know, but I'm commenting on long ago... Later when I ran my own business I did carry a pot of spare fuses and fuse wires. (x) That's material in the sense of timber, cement, ironmongery etc, and not a bolt of cloth. :-) Oh yes, and even back then we had boot problems. D. -- Dave Triffid From atdotcodotuk at dotcodotukat.co.uk Tue Jul 3 10:16:21 2018 From: atdotcodotuk at dotcodotukat.co.uk (Vince M Hudd) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2018 10:16:21 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients Message-ID: I've just spotted and approved a couple of messages that were held for moderation by the mailing list server. Both were dated 28th June, so they've been waiting around five days for me to notice. The reason they were held is because the system is set up to not allow messages with multiple recipients (so more than one address in the 'To' line, or a combination of 'To' and 'CC') Please try to avoid doing this. If you really must send your message to the list and somewhere else, use BCC for the other address(es). -- Vince M Hudd - Soft Rock Software - www.softrock.co.uk RISCOSitory - www.riscository.com From pnyoung at ormail.co.uk Tue Jul 3 10:51:39 2018 From: pnyoung at ormail.co.uk (Peter Young) Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2018 10:51:39 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 3 Jul 2018 Vince M Hudd via Virtualacorn-list wrote: > I've just spotted and approved a couple of messages that were held for > moderation by the mailing list server. Both were dated 28th June, so > they've been waiting around five days for me to notice. > The reason they were held is because the system is set up to not allow > messages with multiple recipients (so more than one address in the 'To' > line, or a combination of 'To' and 'CC') > Please try to avoid doing this. If you really must send your message to > the list and somewhere else, use BCC for the other address(es). Or use ImpEmail to compose a MailMerge message. http://sinenomine.co.uk/software/ bcc is OK up to a point. However, I send emails to 45 members of a walking group. If I use bcc to do this I find that all messages sent to gmail users bounce. Presumably, if the words "think" and "gmail" go in the same sentence, gmail thinks that anything sent to so many recipients must be spam. ImpEmail, however, produces 45 separate emails. Best wishes, Peter. -- Peter Young (zfc Pt) and family Prestbury, Cheltenham, Glos. GL52, England http://pnyoung.orpheusweb.co.uk pnyoung at ormail.co.uk From atdotcodotuk at dotcodotukat.co.uk Tue Jul 3 11:28:40 2018 From: atdotcodotuk at dotcodotukat.co.uk (Vince M Hudd) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2018 11:28:40 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4317d660-3335-d75c-984a-e88cbd452c71@dotcodotukat.co.uk> On 03/07/18 10:51, Peter Young via Virtualacorn-list wrote: >> Please try to avoid doing this. If you really must send your message to >> the list and somewhere else, use BCC for the other address(es). > Or use ImpEmail to compose a MailMerge message. > http://sinenomine.co.uk/software/ > bcc is OK up to a point. However, I send emails to 45 members of a walking > group. [snip problem doing that and ImpEmail as the solution] That's a slightly different issue, though - ImpEmail is for sending messages to a set of addresses in a database; it's a one-way thing. I'm talking about people replying to messages on this *discussion* list and including another address on the reply. -- Vince M Hudd - Soft Rock Software - www.softrock.co.uk RISCOSitory - www.riscository.com From vatory at abbeypress.co.uk Tue Jul 3 14:19:49 2018 From: vatory at abbeypress.co.uk (Jim Nagel) Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2018 14:19:49 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Vince M Hudd via Virtualacorn-list wrote on 3 Jul: > ... the system is set up to not allow messages with multiple > recipients (so more than one address in the 'To' line, or a > combination of 'To' and 'CC') > Please try to avoid doing this. If you really must send your message to > the list and somewhere else, use BCC for the other address(es). In MPro, one of the options when reading a mailinglist message is to "reply to group and include copy to sender" (Ctrl-click on the button). The result is TO the list and CC the individual. Would it be easy to set up the Riscository system to disallow messages with *more than 2* addresses total in TO and CC? -- Jim Nagel www.archivemag.co.uk From bbailey at argonet.co.uk Tue Jul 3 18:01:16 2018 From: bbailey at argonet.co.uk (Brian) Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2018 18:01:16 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] VRPC on Linux Message-ID: <5711e88bf4bbailey@argonet.co.uk> Could some kind soul bring me up to date re VRPC on Linux. Pros and cons - perhaps. Presently running VRPC RISCOS 4.02 on Win 7, mostly very satisfied, but wish to be forearmed re possible eventuality of being forced onto Win 10, sometime. Brian From druck at druck.org.uk Tue Jul 3 20:33:29 2018 From: druck at druck.org.uk (David J. Ruck) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2018 20:33:29 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] VRPC on Linux In-Reply-To: <5711e88bf4bbailey@argonet.co.uk> References: <5711e88bf4bbailey@argonet.co.uk> Message-ID: On 03/07/2018 18:01, Brian via Virtualacorn-list wrote: > Could some kind soul bring me up to date re VRPC on Linux. Pros and cons - > perhaps. VRPC isn't available for Linux, try asking about RPCemu on the newsgroups. ---druck -- Email: druck at druck.org.uk Phone: +44-(0)7974 108301 From atdotcodotuk at dotcodotukat.co.uk Wed Jul 4 09:10:33 2018 From: atdotcodotuk at dotcodotukat.co.uk (Vince M Hudd) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2018 09:10:33 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <94a09475-d3e1-def0-1459-6e422f287395@dotcodotukat.co.uk> On 03/07/18 14:19, Jim Nagel via Virtualacorn-list wrote: > Vince M Hudd via Virtualacorn-list wrote on 3 Jul: >> ... the system is set up to not allow messages with multiple >> recipients > In MPro, one of the options when reading a mailinglist message is to > "reply to group and include copy to sender" (Ctrl-click on the > button). The result is TO the list and CC the individual. What a strange option. What good reason is there to - in effect - send someone two copies of your reply? > Would it be easy to set up the Riscository system to disallow messages > with *more than 2* addresses total in TO and CC? Without checking, yes, I believe I can set a threshold number. I'm not convinced I should, though. I think it might be better if Messenger Pro was fixed so that it didn't have such a rude* button, unless I can be convinced it is a sensible option, and that increasing the list threshold is equally sensible. * Speaking as a subscriber to the mailing list, I would consider it rude of someone to send me a second copy of a reply I'm going to receive anyway. -- Vince M Hudd - Soft Rock Software - www.softrock.co.uk RISCOSitory - www.riscository.com From j.mccartney at blueyonder.co.uk Wed Jul 4 10:34:51 2018 From: j.mccartney at blueyonder.co.uk (John McCartney) Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2018 10:34:51 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5712438220j.mccartney@blueyonder.co.uk> In article , Vince M Hudd via Virtualacorn-list wrote: > I've just spotted and approved a couple of messages that > were held for moderation by the mailing list server. > Both were dated 28th June, so they've been waiting > around five days for me to notice. My reply was thus affected. However, Chris saw my reply straight away but I didn't see it until yesterday. John -- John McCartney j.mccartney at blueyonder.co.uk From jn.ml.vac.83 at wingsandbeaks.org.uk Wed Jul 4 10:39:28 2018 From: jn.ml.vac.83 at wingsandbeaks.org.uk (Jeremy Nicoll - ml VA) Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2018 10:39:28 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients In-Reply-To: <94a09475-d3e1-def0-1459-6e422f287395@dotcodotukat.co.uk> References: <94a09475-d3e1-def0-1459-6e422f287395@dotcodotukat.co.uk> Message-ID: <7d9830f569bd92f07fa0da8d6a2b2118@wingsandbeaks.org.uk> On 2018-07-04 09:10, Vince M Hudd via Virtualacorn-list wrote: > On 03/07/18 14:19, Jim Nagel via Virtualacorn-list wrote: >> Vince M Hudd via Virtualacorn-list wrote on 3 Jul: > >>> ... the system is set up to not allow messages with multiple >>> recipients > >> In MPro, one of the options when reading a mailinglist message is to >> "reply to group and include copy to sender" (Ctrl-click on the >> button). The result is TO the list and CC the individual. > > What a strange option. What good reason is there to - in effect - send > someone two copies of your reply? It's a good question, and personally I agree with you(*). But your email to this list, which I'm replying to, has 'too many' headers: From Vince via VA list Sender VA list To VA list Copy Vince Reply-To VA list and in the webamil system I'm using now, 'Reply' and 'Reply All' buttons are available, with different effects - Reply is back to the list and ReplyAll is list and you. You can see how many users would think ReplyAll made sense. * some email systems won't in fact deliver two copies - they de-dup on the mail provider's server if both copies would have ended up in the same 'mailbox' (that being a concept whose implementation varies between systems, I've found). So if someone sends me a private copy of the reply to a list mail quite I often I only receive that and not the public copy as well and that means that because of no list-server-type headers in the private copy, it's not filtered properly when it arrives here. The de-dup logic happens if for example I have what the mail provider regards as aliases and eg a personal email address me at mydomain and a list address mylistsubs at mydomain are both routed to a server mailbox eg mybigmailbox at mydomain and it's that mailbox I collect mail from. It also means that if one has two family members both subscribed to a single mail list, but their mails handled via provider aliases and routed to a single family mailbox, only one person will ever see each message. -- Jeremy Nicoll - my opinions are my own From atdotcodotuk at dotcodotukat.co.uk Wed Jul 4 14:15:41 2018 From: atdotcodotuk at dotcodotukat.co.uk (Vince M Hudd) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2018 14:15:41 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients In-Reply-To: <7d9830f569bd92f07fa0da8d6a2b2118@wingsandbeaks.org.uk> References: <94a09475-d3e1-def0-1459-6e422f287395@dotcodotukat.co.uk> <7d9830f569bd92f07fa0da8d6a2b2118@wingsandbeaks.org.uk> Message-ID: <624ee5b0-a288-0708-ac23-465528324bbd@dotcodotukat.co.uk> On 04/07/2018 10:39, Jeremy Nicoll - ml VA via Virtualacorn-list wrote: > On 2018-07-04 09:10, Vince M Hudd via Virtualacorn-list wrote: >> On 03/07/18 14:19, Jim Nagel via Virtualacorn-list wrote: [The list holds messages with >1 recipient for moderation] [Various snips] >>> In MPro, one of the options when reading a mailinglist message is to >>> "reply to group and include copy to sender" (Ctrl-click on the >>> button).? The result is TO the list and CC the individual. When I read that quickly earlier and replied, I didn't spot the need to ctrl-click the button; I read it as having a separate button to do it. But the need to ctrl-click means that while Messenger Pro has this - to me odd - option, it does require extra effort on the part of the sender to use it. (It appears Thunderbird also has this option, via a drop down menu on the 'Reply List' button - which also requires extra effort to use.) So the obvious solution is for people not to put in that extra effort, and just use the mailing list properly. 8) >> What a strange option. What good reason is there to - in effect - send >> someone two copies of your reply? > It's a good question, and personally I agree with you(*). > But your email to this list, which I'm replying to, has 'too many' > headers: > ? From?????? Vince via VA list > ? Sender???? VA list > ? To???????? VA list > ? Copy?????? Vince > ? Reply-To?? VA list Without spending time looking into what Mailman does, and instead going from memory for some things and guessing for others: From is "munged" to show the list address with the sender's name so that the from being the original sender's address doesn't upset some mail servers. This is the main DMARC solution. Sender could be removed, but the recommended setting is to include it. I think it essentially overwrites any existing sender in the message (if there is one) so that any bounces come to the list server instead of the original sender. I don't think there's a setting for the To line. The CC, I'm *guessing*, is used as a way to include the actual sender's address in the headers in such a way that it would be useful. For example if you specifically wanted to send me an off-list reply. The Reply-To I could change - IIRC the current setting isn't the recommended one, but I set it like that deliberately. Originally this was for old software like ArgoNET's PostyUser, which has no understanding of mailing lists - and I later discovered that Outlook Express also needed the same setting when investigating a problem someone had reported. Thinking about it, the change for DMARC - which basically puts the list address in the From line - should mean the Reply-To setting can be changed to what it should be, so I'll go through all the RISCOSitory lists and make that change. (I have to log in to this list specifically to send my own messages[1] so I'll change this list straight away. The others I'll do tonight.) [1] I put myself on moderation a while back because a spammer hit on the successful trick of spamming one of the mailing lists with my address in the From line. (I think it was this list, actually.) > * some email systems won't in fact deliver two copies - they de-dup > ? on the mail provider's server if both copies would have ended up > ? in the same 'mailbox' (that being a concept whose implementation > ? varies between systems, I've found). Some email clients have a similar setting. So if a copy is CC'd to the previous poster: * They'll see two copies if their server/client doesn't have the option - which I'd find annoying. * They won't if their server/client does have that option - which means sending the two copies is a pointless thing to do anyway! -- Vince M Hudd Soft Rock Software - www.softrock.co.uk RISCOSitory - www.riscository.com From atdotcodotuk at dotcodotukat.co.uk Wed Jul 4 14:25:37 2018 From: atdotcodotuk at dotcodotukat.co.uk (Vince M Hudd) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2018 14:25:37 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients In-Reply-To: <5712438220j.mccartney@blueyonder.co.uk> References: <5712438220j.mccartney@blueyonder.co.uk> Message-ID: On 04/07/2018 10:34, John McCartney via Virtualacorn-list wrote: > Vince M Hudd via Virtualacorn-list > wrote: >> I've just spotted and approved a couple of messages that >> were held for moderation by the mailing list server. >> Both were dated 28th June, so they've been waiting >> around five days for me to notice. > My reply was thus affected. However, Chris saw my reply > straight away but I didn't see it until yesterday. Yes - that's because the CC doesn't go via the mailing list; that's an email being sent straight from you to the recipient. Had you not done that, the list server would have just passed your message on to the list normally, and you would *both* have seen your reply straight away. (Ish, subject to when/how you fetch mail, etc). -- Vince M Hudd Soft Rock Software - www.softrock.co.uk RISCOSitory - www.riscository.com From atdotcodotuk at dotcodotukat.co.uk Wed Jul 4 14:38:41 2018 From: atdotcodotuk at dotcodotukat.co.uk (Vince M Hudd) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2018 14:38:41 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients In-Reply-To: <624ee5b0-a288-0708-ac23-465528324bbd@dotcodotukat.co.uk> References: <94a09475-d3e1-def0-1459-6e422f287395@dotcodotukat.co.uk> <7d9830f569bd92f07fa0da8d6a2b2118@wingsandbeaks.org.uk> <624ee5b0-a288-0708-ac23-465528324bbd@dotcodotukat.co.uk> Message-ID: <066fd8cb-e2ff-ce52-d17f-2488f04bb362@dotcodotukat.co.uk> On 04/07/2018 14:15, Vince M Hudd via Virtualacorn-list wrote: > The CC, I'm *guessing*, is used as a way to include the actual sender's > address in the headers in such a way that it would be useful. For > example if you specifically wanted to send me an off-list reply. > The Reply-To I could change [...] The default/recommended setting is for it to be set to Poster; now the Reply-to line contains the original poster's email address, and the CC line is no longer present. This is consistent with my guess about that line. I note that going to the extra effort in Thunderbird to "Reply All" no longer adds a CC line - it was replying to all the recipients of the original message, and I wonder if Messenger Pro will behave similarly? If so, the option makes sense now - the inclusion of the CC in the headers (a side effect of the Reply-To setting, which as I said was to be helpful to software from the Dark Ages) was confusing the issue. -- Vince M Hudd Soft Rock Software - www.softrock.co.uk RISCOSitory - www.riscository.com From j.mccartney at blueyonder.co.uk Wed Jul 4 20:08:34 2018 From: j.mccartney at blueyonder.co.uk (John McCartney) Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2018 20:08:34 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients In-Reply-To: References: <5712438220j.mccartney@blueyonder.co.uk> Message-ID: <57127809e3j.mccartney@blueyonder.co.uk> In article , Vince M Hudd via Virtualacorn-list wrote: > > My reply was thus affected. However, Chris saw my reply > > straight away but I didn't see it until yesterday. > Yes - that's because the CC doesn't go via the mailing > list; that's an email being sent straight from you to > the recipient. > Had you not done that, the list server would have just > passed your message on to the list normally, and you > would *both* have seen your reply straight away. (Ish, > subject to when/how you fetch mail, etc). Obvious when it's explained. Thanks Vince, John -- John McCartney j.mccartney at blueyonder.co.uk From vatory at abbeypress.co.uk Wed Jul 11 16:03:07 2018 From: vatory at abbeypress.co.uk (Jim Nagel) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2018 16:03:07 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients In-Reply-To: <624ee5b0-a288-0708-ac23-465528324bbd@dotcodotukat.co.uk> References: <94a09475-d3e1-def0-1459-6e422f287395@dotcodotukat.co.uk> <7d9830f569bd92f07fa0da8d6a2b2118@wingsandbeaks.org.uk> <624ee5b0-a288-0708-ac23-465528324bbd@dotcodotukat.co.uk> Message-ID: Vince M Hudd via Virtualacorn-list wrote on 4 Jul: > On 04/07/2018 10:39, Jeremy Nicoll - ml VA via Virtualacorn-list wrote: >> On 2018-07-04 09:10, Vince M Hudd via Virtualacorn-list wrote: >>> On 03/07/18 14:19, Jim Nagel via Virtualacorn-list wrote: > [Various snips] >>>> In MPro, one of the options when reading a mailinglist message is to >>>> "reply to group and include copy to sender" (Ctrl-click on the >>>> button).? The result is TO the list and CC the individual. ... >>> What a strange option. What good reason is there to - in effect - send >>> someone two copies of your reply? >> It's a good question, and personally I agree with you(*). The only situation where I have ever used MPro's ctrl-Reply option is where I know the list moderator* sends stuff only once a day or at even longer intervals but the OP needs a reply quickly. (* not this list, of course!) Maybe it'd be better if the email client sent the copy as BCC rather than CC, but that's outside Vince's ctrl. It might in fact be an advantage in that the individual's address would not be broadcast with potential for spambots to see it. -- Jim Nagel www.archivemag.co.uk From ardler at argonet.co.uk Thu Jul 12 10:28:15 2018 From: ardler at argonet.co.uk (Bob Ardler) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2018 10:28:15 +0100 (BST) Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients Message-ID: <49458.91.85.218.30.1531387695.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> Jim Nagel, Vince M Hudd and others wrote: [...] MPro [...] What is MPro? (Those of us foolish enough to gain an Msc in CompSci in 1972 know less about computing than today's average 6-year-old. And what is the technical term for the progressive outofdatery equivalent to built-in obsolescence?) Bob From p.sprangers at sprie.nl Thu Jul 12 11:09:59 2018 From: p.sprangers at sprie.nl (Paul Sprangers) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2018 12:09:59 +0200 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients In-Reply-To: <49458.91.85.218.30.1531387695.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> References: <49458.91.85.218.30.1531387695.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> Message-ID: <9f55d50b-8c51-ea56-eda4-14be0e31aaf0@sprie.nl> > Those of us foolish enough to gain an Msc in CompSci in 1972 know less > about computing than today's average 6-year-old I don't know how foolish a Msc in CompSci in 1972 is, but I think that the computing skills of 6-year-olds is largely overestimated. Yes, they know exactly which buttons need to be pressed to make their favourite game appear, but I wonder if that should be entitled as 'computer skill'. Even most of the *16*-year-olds, who spend more time on their phones (and computers) than me in my lifetime, are completely helpless if something goes wrong. But I digress... Kind regards, Paul Sprangers From vatory at abbeypress.co.uk Thu Jul 12 12:19:57 2018 From: vatory at abbeypress.co.uk (Jim Nagel) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2018 12:19:57 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients In-Reply-To: <49458.91.85.218.30.1531387695.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> References: <49458.91.85.218.30.1531387695.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> Message-ID: <66d26b1657.jim@6.abbeypress.net> Bob Ardler via Virtualacorn-list wrote on 12 Jul: > Jim Nagel, Vince M Hudd and others wrote: >> [...] MPro [...] > What is MPro? Sorry: it's one of my own pet peeves that people write abbreviations at first mention, forgetting that some not-yet-familiar readers might appreciate a spelling-out. MPro is Messenger Pro, the email and news client application sold by R-Comp. I think there's a version for Windows too (someone will correct me if I'm wrong). The older version was called Messenger. The original authors are Mark Sawle and Tom Hughes. The other main news and email client app for RiscOS is Pluto. -- Jim Nagel www.archivemag.co.uk From j.mccartney at blueyonder.co.uk Thu Jul 12 15:55:03 2018 From: j.mccartney at blueyonder.co.uk (John McCartney) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2018 15:55:03 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients In-Reply-To: <66d26b1657.jim@6.abbeypress.net> References: <49458.91.85.218.30.1531387695.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <66d26b1657.jim@6.abbeypress.net> Message-ID: <57167f8409j.mccartney@blueyonder.co.uk> In article <66d26b1657.jim at 6.abbeypress.net>, Jim Nagel via Virtualacorn-list wrote: > Bob Ardler via Virtualacorn-list wrote on 12 Jul: > > Jim Nagel, Vince M Hudd and others wrote: > >> [...] MPro [...] > > What is MPro? > Sorry: it's one of my own pet peeves that people write > abbreviations at first mention, forgetting that some > not-yet-familiar readers might appreciate a spelling-out. This is exactly what is done (in what used to be called) Service Writing (SW). SW is the way written communications are made (or should be made) in the armed forces and civil service. When I was in the RAF, all that one needed to know about SW was contained in a Joint Service Publication (JSP) entitled JSP 101. Things move on and the topic is now known as Defence Writing. Note that, having mentioned it in full, I haven't put its abbreviation in parentheses. This is because I'm not going to mention it again and the abbreviation would be redundant. John -- John McCartney j.mccartney at blueyonder.co.uk From ardler at argonet.co.uk Fri Jul 13 09:57:36 2018 From: ardler at argonet.co.uk (Bob Ardler) Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2018 09:57:36 +0100 (BST) Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients In-Reply-To: <66d26b1657.jim@6.abbeypress.net> References: <49458.91.85.218.30.1531387695.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <66d26b1657.jim@6.abbeypress.net> Message-ID: <62160.91.85.218.30.1531472256.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> Jim Nagel wrote: re: >> What is MPro? > [...] > MPro is Messenger Pro, the email and news client application sold by R-Comp. I think there's a version for Windows too (someone will correct me if I'm wrong). Ah, bell should have rung. > The older version was called Messenger. The original authors are Mark Sawle and Tom Hughes. > The other main news and email client app for RiscOS is Pluto. Plot thickens. !NetFetch and !Messenger sit where Andrew's team put them on the pinboard, but to email we just NetSurf webmail, log in & do it all on Netsurf. (NetFetch pops up on entering RiscOS from Windows, offering stuff which would require study to use.) One misses Pluto's style and versatility, but learning how to use it with webmail seems too much bother. As to multiple recipients, our local environment discussion group with 32ish members put 32ish addressees in Cc, not Bcc. Most of them also quote in full (including each Cc) every previous message on the topic. Could be that this apparent goofitude is caused by people using smart phones on the move being unable to do the fiddly bits. Could the messages Vince spotted have come from phones? -- Bob From j.mccartney at blueyonder.co.uk Fri Jul 13 11:36:42 2018 From: j.mccartney at blueyonder.co.uk (John McCartney) Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2018 11:36:42 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients In-Reply-To: <62160.91.85.218.30.1531472256.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> References: <49458.91.85.218.30.1531387695.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <66d26b1657.jim@6.abbeypress.net> <62160.91.85.218.30.1531472256.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> Message-ID: <5716ebb2d5j.mccartney@blueyonder.co.uk> In article <62160.91.85.218.30.1531472256.squirrel at email.orpheusnet.co.uk>, Bob Ardler via Virtualacorn-list wrote: > Jim Nagel wrote: > re: > >> What is MPro? > > [...] > > MPro is Messenger Pro, the email and news client > > application sold by > R-Comp. I think there's a version for Windows too > (someone will correct me if I'm wrong). > Ah, bell should have rung. > > The older version was called Messenger. The original > > authors are Mark Sawle and Tom Hughes. > > The other main news and email client app for RiscOS is > > Pluto. > Plot thickens. !NetFetch and !Messenger sit where > Andrew's team put them on the pinboard, but to email we > just NetSurf webmail, log in & do it all on Netsurf. That'll be why your e-mails look a mess when viewed (in my case) on Pluto. The threading is broken and quoting is discontinuous. In order to compose this reply, I've had to extensively edit your last email to make it more easily readable. > (NetFetch pops up on entering RiscOS from Windows, > offering stuff which would require study to use.) One > misses Pluto's style and versatility, but learning how to > use it with webmail seems too much bother. > As to multiple recipients, our local environment > discussion group with 32ish members put 32ish addressees > in Cc, not Bcc. Most of them also quote in full > (including each Cc) every previous message on the topic. > Could be that this apparent goofitude is caused by people > using smart phones on the move being unable to do the > fiddly bits. Your use of NetSurf and webmail doesn't seem to be able to cope with the fiddly bits either. It would help somewhat if you separated paragraphs with a double return instead of just indenting the first line. I've had to do that before getting Pluto to reformat so that your last two paragraphs don't end up as one. > Could the messages Vince spotted have come from phones? Mine was created in Pluto on an ARMX6. John -- John McCartney j.mccartney at blueyonder.co.uk From vatory at abbeypress.co.uk Fri Jul 13 13:26:11 2018 From: vatory at abbeypress.co.uk (Jim Nagel) Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2018 13:26:11 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] / how to switch Quoting off? In-Reply-To: <62160.91.85.218.30.1531472256.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> References: <49458.91.85.218.30.1531387695.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <66d26b1657.jim@6.abbeypress.net> <62160.91.85.218.30.1531472256.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> Message-ID: <01b9f51657.jim@6.abbeypress.net> Bob Ardler via Virtualacorn-list wrote on 13 Jul: > ... Most of ... our local environment discussion group with 32ish > members ... quote in full (including each Cc) every previous message > on the topic. Could be that this apparent goofitude is caused by > people using smartphones on the move being unable to do the fiddly > bits. I would think that whatever email software they are using, on smartphone or desktop or wherever, would have something in Settings (or Configure or similar name) where they could switch quoting off. Otherwise, I guess the problem with hoi polloi is just that they are too lazy to use their Delete key before they hit Send. (Pet peeve.) -- Jim Nagel www.archivemag.co.uk From Stuartlists at orpheusinternet.co.uk Fri Jul 13 18:27:38 2018 From: Stuartlists at orpheusinternet.co.uk (lists) Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2018 17:27:38 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients In-Reply-To: <62160.91.85.218.30.1531472256.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> References: <49458.91.85.218.30.1531387695.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <66d26b1657.jim@6.abbeypress.net> <62160.91.85.218.30.1531472256.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> Message-ID: <571711523dStuartlists@orpheusinternet.co.uk> In article <62160.91.85.218.30.1531472256.squirrel at email.orpheusnet.co.uk>, Bob Ardler via Virtualacorn-list wrote: > One misses Pluto's style and versatility, So why aren't you using it instead of trying to use webmail? -- Stuart Winsor Tools With A Mission sending tools across the world http://www.twam.co.uk/ From pnyoung at ormail.co.uk Fri Jul 13 17:47:33 2018 From: pnyoung at ormail.co.uk (Peter Young) Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2018 17:47:33 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients In-Reply-To: <571711523dStuartlists@orpheusinternet.co.uk> References: <49458.91.85.218.30.1531387695.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <66d26b1657.jim@6.abbeypress.net> <62160.91.85.218.30.1531472256.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <571711523dStuartlists@orpheusinternet.co.uk> Message-ID: On 13 Jul 2018 lists via Virtualacorn-list wrote: > In article <62160.91.85.218.30.1531472256.squirrel at email.orpheusnet.co.uk>, > Bob Ardler via Virtualacorn-list > wrote: >> One misses Pluto's style and versatility, > So why aren't you using it instead of trying to use webmail? +1. Webmail is the invention from Hell. Best wishes, Peter. -- Peter Young (zfc Au) and family Prestbury, Cheltenham, Glos. GL52, England http://pnyoung.orpheusweb.co.uk pnyoung at ormail.co.uk From dave at triffid.co.uk Fri Jul 13 19:12:57 2018 From: dave at triffid.co.uk (Dave Symes) Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2018 19:12:57 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients In-Reply-To: References: <49458.91.85.218.30.1531387695.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <66d26b1657.jim@6.abbeypress.net> <62160.91.85.218.30.1531472256.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <571711523dStuartlists@orpheusinternet.co.uk> Message-ID: <5717157835dave@triffid.co.uk> In article , Peter Young via Virtualacorn-list wrote: > On 13 Jul 2018 lists via Virtualacorn-list > wrote: > > In article <62160.91.85.218.30.1531472256.squirrel at email.orpheusnet.co.uk>, > > Bob Ardler via Virtualacorn-list > > wrote: > >> One misses Pluto's style and versatility, > > So why aren't you using it instead of trying to use webmail? > +1. Webmail is the invention from Hell. > Best wishes, > Peter. I can think of a number of other things that are inventions from hell... On balance, while Webmail is crude it has its uses. Dave -- Dave Triffid From ardler at argonet.co.uk Fri Jul 20 15:48:41 2018 From: ardler at argonet.co.uk (Bob Ardler) Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2018 15:48:41 +0100 (BST) Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients Message-ID: <53160.91.85.218.30.1532098121.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> John McCartney wrote: re: >> !NetFetch and !Messenger sit where >> Andrew's team put them on the pinboard, but to email we >> just NetSurf webmail, log in & do it all on Netsurf. > That'll be why your e-mails look a mess when viewed (in my > case) on Pluto. The threading is broken and quoting is > discontinuous. In order to compose this reply, I've had to > extensively edit your last email to make it more easily > readable. Well, same here with many others' emails. (Broken-threading and continuous-quoting are terms beyond my ken.) >> [...] group with 32ish members put 32ish addressees >> in Cc, not Bcc. Most of them also quote in full >> (including each Cc) every previous message on the topic. >> Could be [...] caused by [...] smart phones on the move >> being unable to do the fiddly bits. > Your use of NetSurf and webmail doesn't seem to be able to > cope with the fiddly bits either. It would help somewhat if > you separated paragraphs with a double return instead of > just indenting the first line. I've had to do that before > getting Pluto to reformat so that your last two paragraphs > don't end up as one. OK, indent bad, double return good now added to goodmanners. Yonks ago Paul Vigay said no more Pluto, webmail now, use your browser. Hence the NetSurfing, as the RiscOS FireFox doesn't work here and Webster pages have weird layout. Andrew made NetFetch pop up on RiscOS entry with multiple options needing study & practice, so am sticking with the simple way. Didn't realize it rattles Pluto. Er, typed this days ago & clicked Save Draft instead of Send. Dementia rules. Bob From styleguide at avisoft.f9.co.uk Fri Jul 20 17:14:45 2018 From: styleguide at avisoft.f9.co.uk (Martin) Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2018 17:14:45 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients In-Reply-To: <53160.91.85.218.30.1532098121.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> References: <53160.91.85.218.30.1532098121.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> Message-ID: <571aa57fd4styleguide@avisoft.f9.co.uk> On 20 Jul in article <53160.91.85.218.30.1532098121.squirrel at email.orpheusnet.co.uk>, Bob Ardler via Virtualacorn-list wrote: > John McCartney wrote: > re: > >> !NetFetch and !Messenger sit where > >> Andrew's team put them on the pinboard, but to email we > >> just NetSurf webmail, log in & do it all on Netsurf. > > That'll be why your e-mails look a mess when viewed (in my > > case) on Pluto. The threading is broken and quoting is > > discontinuous. In order to compose this reply, I've had to > > extensively edit your last email to make it more easily > > readable. > Well, same here with many others' emails. (Broken-threading > and continuous-quoting are terms beyond my ken.) Broken Threads are when messages which are replies do not contain in their header lines (not normally seen) a 'References:' header containing a reference to the original message. This means that mail readers which can display message 'threads' properly cannot do so, and the thread is 'broken'. Then the only way to group messages together is by the subject. Strangely, of your 3 replies in this thread, one was referenced correctly, the other two were not. Continuous Quoting probably refers to the nasty habit of some mail programs to send chunks of text which are way way over the standard 70 or so line length limit. When quoted, there is just one quote indicator (eg '>') at the start of many lines of displayed text, instead of at the start of every displayed line. > > Your use of NetSurf and webmail doesn't seem to be able to > > cope with the fiddly bits either. It would help somewhat if > > you separated paragraphs with a double return instead of > > just indenting the first line. I've had to do that before > > getting Pluto to reformat so that your last two paragraphs > > don't end up as one. > OK, indent bad, double return good now added to goodmanners. > Yonks ago Paul Vigay said no more Pluto, webmail now, use > your browser. Hence the NetSurfing, as the RiscOS FireFox > doesn't work here and Webster pages have weird layout. > Andrew made NetFetch pop up on RiscOS entry with multiple > options needing study & practice, so am sticking with the > simple way. Didn't realize it rattles Pluto. Pluto will happily display most non-standard messages without being rattled, but they can be more difficult to read and reply to than standard ones. In an earlier post, you wrote: > One misses Pluto's style and versatility, but learning how to use > it with webmail seems too much bother. If you miss Pluto, then it can easily be used on any RISC OS machine. You do not use it 'with webmail'. The fetching and sending of emails for Pluto over the Internet is handled by a Transport Application as always - eg AntiSpam, POPstar, Hermes (probably in your NetFetch). For further details of Pluto, see www.avisoft.f9.co.uk/Pluto for infomation and a contact email address. IMHO when away from your RISC OS machine but with access to a browser, Webmail has its uses, but I personally would not like to use it all the time. Martin -- Martin Avison using a British Iyonix running RISC OS 5 and the Pluto mail and newsreader From ardler at argonet.co.uk Sun Jul 22 11:04:01 2018 From: ardler at argonet.co.uk (Bob Ardler) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2018 11:04:01 +0100 (BST) Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients threadcut In-Reply-To: <571aa57fd4styleguide@avisoft.f9.co.uk> References: <53160.91.85.218.30.1532098121.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <571aa57fd4styleguide@avisoft.f9.co.uk> Message-ID: <50053.91.85.218.30.1532253841.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> Martin Avison wrote: Re: >> [...] Broken-threading & continuous-quoting are beyond my ken. > Broken Threads are when messages which are replies do not contain in > their header lines (not normally seen) a 'References:' header > containing a reference to the original message. This means that mail > readers which can display message 'threads' properly cannot do so, > and the thread is 'broken'. Then the only way to group messages > together is by the subject. Strangely, of your 3 replies in this > thread, one was referenced correctly, the other two were not. > > Continuous Quoting probably refers to the nasty habit of some mail > programs to send chunks of text which are way way over the standard > 70 or so line length limit. When quoted, there is just one quote > indicator (eg '>') at the start of many lines of displayed text, > instead of at the start of every displayed line. > Pluto will happily display most non-standard messages without being > rattled, but they can be more difficult to read and reply to than > standard ones. > > In an earlier post, you wrote: >> One misses Pluto's style and versatility, but learning how to use >> it with webmail seems too much bother. > > If you miss Pluto, then it can easily be used on any RISC OS machine. > You do not use it 'with webmail'. > The fetching and sending of emails for Pluto over the Internet is > handled by a Transport Application as always - eg AntiSpam, POPstar, > Hermes (probably in your NetFetch). > > For further details of Pluto, see www.avisoft.f9.co.uk/Pluto for > infomation and a contact email address. > > IMHO when away from your RISC OS machine but with access to a > browser, Webmail has its uses, but I personally would not like to use > it all the time. Thanks, Martin, for several clarifications. Can now see, with apologies, that my questions have cut Vince M Hudd's thread with digression. Have googled & learnt you've taken over Pluto & his e-creation from Jonathan Duddington -- a vital job which gave huge benefit to a brave partially-sighted woman in Greenwich. Sadly, the message from Paul Vigay (or successor?) and argonet was quite clear: webmail from now on. In any case, filing by hand & sorting by sender (or e-list and subject) has become routine. So it's a sad goodbye to splendid Pluto & Jonathan (couldn't find what's become of him on Google). Good luck with your splendid work, Bob From atdotcodotuk at dotcodotukat.co.uk Sun Jul 22 11:22:45 2018 From: atdotcodotuk at dotcodotukat.co.uk (Vince M Hudd) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2018 11:22:45 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients threadcut In-Reply-To: <50053.91.85.218.30.1532253841.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> References: <53160.91.85.218.30.1532098121.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <571aa57fd4styleguide@avisoft.f9.co.uk> <50053.91.85.218.30.1532253841.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> Message-ID: <7e4cd432-da5c-4acb-30e4-6b78a5959d5a@dotcodotukat.co.uk> On 22/07/18 11:04, Bob Ardler via Virtualacorn-list wrote: > Sadly, the message from Paul Vigay (or successor?) and argonet was > quite clear: webmail from now on. In all honesty, I'd be absolutely amazed if Paul said anything of the sort - and I can't see Richard Brown (who now runs Orpheus) suggesting something like that, either. Orpheus has always included mailboxes accessed in the normal way as part of the service. I strongly suspect that you've misunderstood something that one of them has said. -- Vince M Hudd - Soft Rock Software - www.softrock.co.uk RISCOSitory - www.riscository.com From druck at druck.org.uk Sun Jul 22 12:09:51 2018 From: druck at druck.org.uk (David J. Ruck) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2018 12:09:51 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients threadcut In-Reply-To: <50053.91.85.218.30.1532253841.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> References: <53160.91.85.218.30.1532098121.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <571aa57fd4styleguide@avisoft.f9.co.uk> <50053.91.85.218.30.1532253841.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> Message-ID: <27b2c074-49f1-7b8f-1d4b-4d1cc77cda5d@druck.org.uk> On 22/07/2018 11:04, Bob Ardler via Virtualacorn-list wrote: > Sadly, the message from Paul > Vigay (or successor?) and argonet was quite clear: webmail from now > on. In any case, filing by hand & sorting by sender (or e-list and > subject) has become routine. So it's a sad goodbye to splendid Pluto > & Jonathan (couldn't find what's become of him on Google). Well there are other ISPs which still provide email, but if you are determined to stay with Orpheus, there are other options. Some webmail providers also provide POP and IMAP access, such as gmail. There are also a number of free and subscription email services which you can use from any ISP. ---druck -- Email: druck at druck.org.uk Phone: +44-(0)7974 108301 From Stuartlists at orpheusinternet.co.uk Sun Jul 22 21:34:28 2018 From: Stuartlists at orpheusinternet.co.uk (lists) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2018 21:34:28 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients threadcut In-Reply-To: <27b2c074-49f1-7b8f-1d4b-4d1cc77cda5d@druck.org.uk> References: <53160.91.85.218.30.1532098121.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <571aa57fd4styleguide@avisoft.f9.co.uk> <50053.91.85.218.30.1532253841.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <27b2c074-49f1-7b8f-1d4b-4d1cc77cda5d@druck.org.uk> Message-ID: <571bc4f2e2Stuartlists@orpheusinternet.co.uk> In article <27b2c074-49f1-7b8f-1d4b-4d1cc77cda5d at druck.org.uk>, David J. Ruck via Virtualacorn-list wrote: > Well there are other ISPs which still provide email, but if you are > determined to stay with Orpheus, Orpheus do still provide email and as far as I am aware there is no plan to drop it. Of three aliases I have, one is an Orpheus domain account, one is an Argonet domain account and the third a zfc domain account. I think I am probably one of only a couple of people with the latter and I have paid the domain renewal fees for the last couple of times (a trifilling amount really) One only has to check out http://www.orpheusinternet.co.uk/email/ Orpheus also still provide full, unrestricted, newsgroup access via Gignews > Some webmail providers also provide POP and IMAP access, such as gmail. GMAIL!!! for goodness sake! -- Stuart Winsor Tools With A Mission sending tools across the world http://www.twam.co.uk/ From Stuartlists at orpheusinternet.co.uk Sun Jul 22 21:16:08 2018 From: Stuartlists at orpheusinternet.co.uk (lists) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2018 21:16:08 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients threadcut In-Reply-To: <7e4cd432-da5c-4acb-30e4-6b78a5959d5a@dotcodotukat.co.uk> References: <53160.91.85.218.30.1532098121.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <571aa57fd4styleguide@avisoft.f9.co.uk> <50053.91.85.218.30.1532253841.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <7e4cd432-da5c-4acb-30e4-6b78a5959d5a@dotcodotukat.co.uk> Message-ID: <571bc34567Stuartlists@orpheusinternet.co.uk> In article <7e4cd432-da5c-4acb-30e4-6b78a5959d5a at dotcodotukat.co.uk>, Vince M Hudd via Virtualacorn-list wrote: > On 22/07/18 11:04, Bob Ardler via Virtualacorn-list wrote: > > Sadly, the message from Paul Vigay (or successor?) and argonet was > > quite clear: webmail from now on. > In all honesty, I'd be absolutely amazed if Paul said anything of the > sort - So would I! > and I can't see Richard Brown (who now runs Orpheus) suggesting > something like that, either. Orpheus has always included mailboxes > accessed in the normal way as part of the service. When I moved back from Pipex to Orpheus, (I'd been with Argonet right up to latter days, when it was overrun with spam and jumped ship) Paul seemed quite happy to provide three separate user IDs on one account at no extra cost, so that different members of the family could fetch their mail independently. He implied that email accounts were "no big deal" and quite trivial to set up and manage. > I strongly suspect that you've misunderstood something that one of them > has said. I would second that. -- Stuart Winsor Tools With A Mission sending tools across the world http://www.twam.co.uk/ From Stuartlists at orpheusinternet.co.uk Sun Jul 22 21:39:59 2018 From: Stuartlists at orpheusinternet.co.uk (lists) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2018 21:39:59 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients In-Reply-To: <571aa57fd4styleguide@avisoft.f9.co.uk> References: <53160.91.85.218.30.1532098121.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <571aa57fd4styleguide@avisoft.f9.co.uk> Message-ID: <571bc5745cStuartlists@orpheusinternet.co.uk> In article <571aa57fd4styleguide at avisoft.f9.co.uk>, Martin via Virtualacorn-list wrote: > IMHO when away from your RISC OS machine but with access to a > browser, Webmail has its uses, but I personally would not like to use > it all the time. My opinion too. It's useful when I am away on holiday - !NetSurf on VA on a little Dell Lattitude 2110 but I only use it to check personal emails, mailing lists can wait till I get back home. -- Stuart Winsor Tools With A Mission sending tools across the world http://www.twam.co.uk/ From pnyoung at ormail.co.uk Sun Jul 22 21:48:57 2018 From: pnyoung at ormail.co.uk (Peter Young) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2018 21:48:57 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients In-Reply-To: <571bc5745cStuartlists@orpheusinternet.co.uk> References: <53160.91.85.218.30.1532098121.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <571aa57fd4styleguide@avisoft.f9.co.uk> <571bc5745cStuartlists@orpheusinternet.co.uk> Message-ID: <7046c61b57.pnyoung@pnyoung.ormail.co.uk> On 22 Jul 2018 lists via Virtualacorn-list wrote: > In article <571aa57fd4styleguide at avisoft.f9.co.uk>, > Martin via Virtualacorn-list > wrote: >> IMHO when away from your RISC OS machine but with access to a >> browser, Webmail has its uses, but I personally would not like to use >> it all the time. > My opinion too. It's useful when I am away on holiday - !NetSurf on VA on > a little Dell Lattitude 2110 but I only use it to check personal emails, > mailing lists can wait till I get back home. I have used Orpheus webmail when away, but it totally fouls up any formatting in a reply. What I do now is to use NetFetch and Messenger Pro while I'm away?on VRPC, with "delete all fetched mails" turned off, and bcc any replies I make to my own address. When I'm back I can save these messages as .eml files and import them into my MPro on this VRPC using ShareFS. Problem solved, go thou and do likewise! Best wishes, Peter. -- Peter Young (zfc Au) and family Prestbury, Cheltenham, Glos. GL52, England http://pnyoung.orpheusweb.co.uk pnyoung at ormail.co.uk From Stuartlists at orpheusinternet.co.uk Sun Jul 22 22:15:25 2018 From: Stuartlists at orpheusinternet.co.uk (lists) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2018 22:15:25 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients In-Reply-To: <7046c61b57.pnyoung@pnyoung.ormail.co.uk> References: <53160.91.85.218.30.1532098121.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <571aa57fd4styleguide@avisoft.f9.co.uk> <571bc5745cStuartlists@orpheusinternet.co.uk> <7046c61b57.pnyoung@pnyoung.ormail.co.uk> Message-ID: <571bc8b2a2Stuartlists@orpheusinternet.co.uk> In article <7046c61b57.pnyoung at pnyoung.ormail.co.uk>, Peter Young via Virtualacorn-list wrote: > I have used Orpheus webmail when away, but it totally fouls up any > formatting in a reply. What I do now is to use NetFetch and Messenger > Pro while I'm away#on VRPC, with "delete all fetched mails" turned off, > and bcc any replies I make to my own address. When I'm back I can save > these messages as .eml files and import them into my MPro on this VRPC > using ShareFS. Problem solved, go thou and do likewise! Yes. Whilst I check my emails I don't reply unless it is urgent that I do so. They are all then dealt with when I get back home, to !POPstar and !Pluto. -- Stuart Winsor Tools With A Mission sending tools across the world http://www.twam.co.uk/ From cvjazz at waitrose.com Sun Jul 22 23:34:29 2018 From: cvjazz at waitrose.com (Chris Newman) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2018 23:34:29 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients threadcut In-Reply-To: <7e4cd432-da5c-4acb-30e4-6b78a5959d5a@dotcodotukat.co.uk> References: <53160.91.85.218.30.1532098121.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <571aa57fd4styleguide@avisoft.f9.co.uk> <50053.91.85.218.30.1532253841.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <7e4cd432-da5c-4acb-30e4-6b78a5959d5a@dotcodotukat.co.uk> Message-ID: <571bcfeff9cvjazz@waitrose.com> In article <7e4cd432-da5c-4acb-30e4-6b78a5959d5a at dotcodotukat.co.uk>, Vince M Hudd via Virtualacorn-list wrote: > On 22/07/18 11:04, Bob Ardler via Virtualacorn-list wrote: > > Sadly, the message from Paul Vigay (or successor?) and argonet was > > quite clear: webmail from now on. > In all honesty, I'd be absolutely amazed if Paul said anything of the > sort - and I can't see Richard Brown (who now runs Orpheus) suggesting > something like that, either. Orpheus has always included mailboxes > accessed in the normal way as part of the service. > I strongly suspect that you've misunderstood something that one of them > has said. I concur. Knowing Paul Vigay well here in Portsmouth he was fanatical about cyber safety & always preferred downloading his mail to his machine(s) rather than using the web. I use Pluto on a RiscPC at home & Virtual Acorn when I'm away & that includes being on the other side of the world. When in foreign parts I log into webmail once so they know where I genuinely am & stop pestering me about safety then it's back to Pluto & Netfetch. I only check my accounts on the web now & again to check they haven't put something I really needed in the junk folder. I use PoP3 & set Netfetch to delete messages from the server after downloading. If you want a belt & braces approach you can leave them on the web to be reviewed later or downloaded to another device. What's not to like. -- Chris From ardler at argonet.co.uk Mon Jul 23 12:09:26 2018 From: ardler at argonet.co.uk (Bob Ardler) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2018 12:09:26 +0100 (BST) Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients threadcut Message-ID: <49366.91.85.218.30.1532344166.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> Clarification: Vince M Hudd wrote, re my claim that Paul or Richard or others said webmail from now on: > In all honesty, I'd be absolutely amazed if Paul said anything of the > sort - and I can't see Richard Brown (who now runs Orpheus) suggesting > something like that, either. Orpheus has always included mailboxes > accessed in the normal way as part of the service. > I strongly suspect that you've misunderstood something that one of > them has said. Dementiated memory prevents correct dates. Roughly: by late 80s was using a now-extinct browser &c on the Archimedes. Pluto arrived and helped greatly. Switch to 1st Iyonix was ok. On updated Iyonix email failed, Castle inaccessible by phone or snailmail. Phoned Argonet, and their solution was something unknown to me -- webmail, which they explained in detail. Am now used to webmail and shall stick to it. The intelligent notes from VMH, Druck, SW, PY & CN indicate knowledge & skill beyond this declining brain -- especially where RTFM is needed. (Those who know enough to write manuals seldom know what the dontknows need to know.) So it's webmail here, but long may Jonathan's and Martin's work flourish. (What did become of Jonathan?) Bob -- Islington North From Stuartlists at orpheusinternet.co.uk Mon Jul 23 14:29:40 2018 From: Stuartlists at orpheusinternet.co.uk (lists) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2018 14:29:40 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients threadcut In-Reply-To: <49366.91.85.218.30.1532344166.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> References: <49366.91.85.218.30.1532344166.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> Message-ID: <571c21e48aStuartlists@orpheusinternet.co.uk> In article <49366.91.85.218.30.1532344166.squirrel at email.orpheusnet.co.uk>, Bob Ardler via Virtualacorn-list wrote: > Am now used to webmail and shall stick to it. The intelligent notes > from VMH, Druck, SW, PY & CN indicate knowledge & skill beyond this > declining brain -- especially where RTFM is needed. (Those who know > enough to write manuals seldom know what the dontknows need to know.) > So it's webmail here, but long may Jonathan's and Martin's work > flourish. (What did become of Jonathan?) Jonathan continued with his principle interest, which was in producing speech on the computer, for some time after passing !Pluto on for further development to Martin. http://espeak.sourceforge.net/ The documentation for !Pluto is, with all due respect to Jonathan, a lttle rudimentary, consisting, as it does, of a number of text files. However Brian Bailey, a user, produced a much better, "proper" manual in !Ovation format and I have a draft copy here. -- Stuart Winsor Tools With A Mission sending tools across the world http://www.twam.co.uk/ From styleguide at avisoft.f9.co.uk Mon Jul 23 15:04:49 2018 From: styleguide at avisoft.f9.co.uk (Martin) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2018 15:04:49 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients threadcut In-Reply-To: <571c21e48aStuartlists@orpheusinternet.co.uk> References: <49366.91.85.218.30.1532344166.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <571c21e48aStuartlists@orpheusinternet.co.uk> Message-ID: <571c251c93styleguide@avisoft.f9.co.uk> On 23 Jul in article <571c21e48aStuartlists at orpheusinternet.co.uk>, lists via Virtualacorn-list wrote: > The documentation for !Pluto is, with all due respect to Jonathan, > a lttle rudimentary, consisting, as it does, of a number of text > files. The original documentation by Jonathan was indeed a number of text files. However, many years ago I took those and added vast amounts of information culled from internet postings and created a StrongHelp manual. Since I have had access to the Pluto sources it has had further updates, and from v3.06 it has been included with Pluto and is on the iconbar menu. The original text documents are no longer distributed. I know StrongHelp is not everyone's favourite, but it is small, fast, and enables one or many pages to be displayed, and instant searches to be done. It is the only complete and up-to-date documentation that I am aware of, and has a full alphabetic Index and a structured Contents. If I had time, I would complete my StrongHelp conversion facility: Anyone got any spare? I would also add that the Pluto developments I have done have only been possible because of the changes that Robert Sprowson has done, and the help in understanding C that he has given me. Martin -- Martin Avison using a British Iyonix running RISC OS 5 and the Pluto mail and newsreader From atdotcodotuk at dotcodotukat.co.uk Mon Jul 23 15:43:50 2018 From: atdotcodotuk at dotcodotukat.co.uk (Vince M Hudd) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2018 15:43:50 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients threadcut In-Reply-To: <571c251c93styleguide@avisoft.f9.co.uk> References: <49366.91.85.218.30.1532344166.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <571c21e48aStuartlists@orpheusinternet.co.uk> <571c251c93styleguide@avisoft.f9.co.uk> Message-ID: <790d3fdf-1314-89a3-84dd-d157262603f7@dotcodotukat.co.uk> On 23/07/2018 15:04, Martin via Virtualacorn-list wrote: [Pluto's documentation] This really belongs on the Pluto list - so I'll post it here and then re-post it there. I suggest anyone with any interest in Pluto subscribes and continues this discussion there: plutousers at yahoogroups.com (yuck!) > I know StrongHelp is not everyone's favourite, but it is small, fast, > and enables one or many pages to be displayed, and instant searches > to be done. It is the only complete and up-to-date documentation that > I am aware of, and has a full alphabetic Index and a structured > Contents. If I had time, I would complete my StrongHelp conversion > facility: Anyone got any spare? I'm not entirely familiar with the StrongHelp file format[1], but isn't it just a sort of mark up? If so, I wonder if something like WebChange can be used to convert individual pages to something like XML? I suggest XML because there does exist one and a half tools for converting from XML to other formats. One is Steve Fryatt's, and (IIRC) can convert from XML to various formats - including StrongHelp. The other is a half (well, tenth) written one of my own (which may or may not become part of WebChange, or a separate thing in its own right) which I aim to make more customisable, so it can theoretically go from XML to anything at all that it's possible to write a config/rules file for. (I'm holding off writing it fully until the WebChange manual is written - which I'm slowly working on in XML. Because of that time stuff you mentioned.) [1] I'm a StrongHelp loather, so I never use it for my own documentation[2], and only ever look at SH documentation for other stuff as a last resort [2] Shut up Ron, if you're reading this list. ;) -- Vince M Hudd Soft Rock Software - www.softrock.co.uk RISCOSitory - www.riscository.com From j.mccartney at blueyonder.co.uk Mon Jul 23 17:07:00 2018 From: j.mccartney at blueyonder.co.uk (John McCartney) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2018 17:07:00 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients In-Reply-To: <53160.91.85.218.30.1532098121.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> References: <53160.91.85.218.30.1532098121.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> Message-ID: <571c304c70j.mccartney@blueyonder.co.uk> In article <53160.91.85.218.30.1532098121.squirrel at email.orpheusnet.co.uk>, Bob Ardler via Virtualacorn-list wrote: > John McCartney wrote: re: > >> !NetFetch and !Messenger sit where Andrew's team put > >> them on the pinboard, but to email we just NetSurf > >> webmail, log in & do it all on Netsurf. > > That'll be why your e-mails look a mess when viewed (in > > my case) on Pluto. The threading is broken and quoting > > is discontinuous. In order to compose this reply, I've > > had to extensively edit your last email to make it more > > easily readable. > Well, same here with many others' emails. > (Broken-threading and continuous-quoting are terms beyond > my ken.) Ok. If this list accepts attachments, I'll take a snapshot of what your e-mail looks like in Pluto so that you can see the problems. Does the list accept attachments? > >> [...] group with 32ish members put 32ish addressees in > >> Cc, not Bcc. Most of them also quote in full > >> (including each Cc) every previous message on the > >> topic. Could be [...] caused by [...] smart phones on > >> the move being unable to do the fiddly bits. > > Your use of NetSurf and webmail doesn't seem to be able > > to cope with the fiddly bits either. It would help > > somewhat if you separated paragraphs with a double > > return instead of just indenting the first line. I've > > had to do that before getting Pluto to reformat so that > > your last two paragraphs don't end up as one. > OK, indent bad, double return good now added to > goodmanners. Splendid! Old dogs, new tricks eh, what? > Yonks ago Paul Vigay said no more Pluto, webmail now, use > your browser. Despite his many good points, Paul was (in my opinion) quite wrong in this matter. I only use web-mail in extremis. > Hence the NetSurfing, as the RiscOS FireFox doesn't work > here and Webster pages have weird layout. Andrew made > NetFetch pop up on RiscOS entry with multiple options > needing study & practice, so am sticking with the simple > way. Didn't realize it rattles Pluto. > Er, typed this days ago & clicked Save Draft instead of > Send. Dementia rules. I would have answered straight away but my Virgin Media Hub suffered a terminal decline last Tuesday and, due to lack of communication by VM, has only just been replaced this afternoon. John -- John McCartney j.mccartney at blueyonder.co.uk From atdotcodotuk at dotcodotukat.co.uk Mon Jul 23 19:25:19 2018 From: atdotcodotuk at dotcodotukat.co.uk (Vince M Hudd) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2018 19:25:19 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients In-Reply-To: <571c304c70j.mccartney@blueyonder.co.uk> References: <53160.91.85.218.30.1532098121.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <571c304c70j.mccartney@blueyonder.co.uk> Message-ID: <63547f05-d6dc-1964-4985-eb3413348596@dotcodotukat.co.uk> On 23/07/18 17:07, John McCartney via Virtualacorn-list wrote: > In article > <53160.91.85.218.30.1532098121.squirrel at email.orpheusnet.co.uk>, > Bob Ardler via Virtualacorn-list [...] >> Well, same here with many others' emails. >> (Broken-threading and continuous-quoting are terms beyond >> my ken.) > Ok. If this list accepts attachments, I'll take a snapshot > of what your e-mail looks like in Pluto so that you can > see the problems. > Does the list accept attachments? I can't remember the exact settings I've given it, but the answer should be no. And if I don't have it set correctly, and attachments can be posted, the sender will end up on my naughty list. So they'll be subject to a good telling off, and put on moderation - with the latter meaning their messages are likely to be delayed until I notice and approve them. i.e. don't post attachments. Better to bung an image up on some webspace somewhere and just post the link to it. There's also an upper size limit on messages - probably around 10kB. -- Vince M Hudd - Soft Rock Software - www.softrock.co.uk RISCOSitory - www.riscository.com From j.mccartney at blueyonder.co.uk Tue Jul 24 12:34:29 2018 From: j.mccartney at blueyonder.co.uk (John McCartney) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2018 12:34:29 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients In-Reply-To: <63547f05-d6dc-1964-4985-eb3413348596@dotcodotukat.co.uk> References: <53160.91.85.218.30.1532098121.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <571c304c70j.mccartney@blueyonder.co.uk> <63547f05-d6dc-1964-4985-eb3413348596@dotcodotukat.co.uk> Message-ID: <571c9b2f1dj.mccartney@blueyonder.co.uk> In article <63547f05-d6dc-1964-4985-eb3413348596 at dotcodotukat.co.uk>, Vince M Hudd via Virtualacorn-list wrote: > > Does the list accept attachments? > I can't remember the exact settings I've given it, but > the answer should be no. Ok. I can live with that. > And if I don't have it set correctly, and attachments can > be posted, the sender will end up on my naughty list. Oh, nooooo! The very thought of being on anyone's naughty list fills me with dread... :-) > So they'll be subject to a good telling off, and put on > moderation - with the latter meaning their messages are > likely to be delayed until I notice and approve them. > i.e. don't post attachments. Better to bung an image up > on some webspace somewhere and just post the link to it. I've just picked up a personal e-mail from Bob but am preoccupied with landscapers who have started today. I'll put images on Dropbox later today. John -- John McCartney j.mccartney at blueyonder.co.uk From dave at triffid.co.uk Tue Jul 24 19:53:30 2018 From: dave at triffid.co.uk (Dave Symes) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2018 19:53:30 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Shutdown problem VRPC and Windows Message-ID: <571cc36083dave@triffid.co.uk> I'm wondering if anyone else here has encountered this problem. Fay's computer is running Win 7 Pro and VRPC-Adjust SA and for the most part no particular problems. However occasionally on shutting down VRPC using either the Switcher Menu "Shutdown" or Ctrl+Shift+F12 VRPC shuts down, then the monitor screen goes black and that's it, as it seems to be frozen in that state. No mouse pointer, no keyboard action from a three fingered salute... Nada. Press and hold the front power switch on the computer to force a power off is the only exit from this freeze state. Worth noting, the W7 PC itself never has any trouble booting up or legit closing down, the above noted only happens occasionally when exiting VRPC. Any thoughts please. Thanks Dave -- Dave Triffid From bbailey at argonet.co.uk Wed Jul 25 10:29:42 2018 From: bbailey at argonet.co.uk (Brian) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2018 10:29:42 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Shutdown problem VRPC and Windows In-Reply-To: <571cc36083dave@triffid.co.uk> References: <571cc36083dave@triffid.co.uk> Message-ID: <571d139894bbailey@argonet.co.uk> In article <571cc36083dave at triffid.co.uk>, Dave Symes via Virtualacorn-list wrote: > I'm wondering if anyone else here has encountered this problem. > Fay's computer is running Win 7 Pro and VRPC-Adjust SA and for the most > part no particular problems. However occasionally on shutting down VRPC > using either the Switcher Menu "Shutdown" or Ctrl+Shift+F12 VRPC shuts > down, then the monitor screen goes black and that's it, as it seems to > be frozen in that state. > No mouse pointer, no keyboard action from a three fingered salute... > Nada. > Press and hold the front power switch on the computer to force a power > off is the only exit from this freeze state. > Worth noting, the W7 PC itself never has any trouble booting up or legit > closing down, the above noted only happens occasionally when exiting > VRPC. > Any thoughts please. Not sure that this is the slightest bit of help, Dave, but I have noticed some variability in the time 'lag' between changing from VRPC screen to Win 7 screen on shutdown. It certainly isn't instantaneous. Conversely, on VRPC startup from Win 7 I have had a 'seized' black screen, once or twice I believe, that I reported some time back. Just had to get rough with a reset boot from the power switch. Graphics card/memory problem perhaps? Dunno? Just a wild guess! Best wishes Brian From j.mccartney at blueyonder.co.uk Wed Jul 25 11:10:02 2018 From: j.mccartney at blueyonder.co.uk (John McCartney) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2018 10:10:02 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients In-Reply-To: <571c9b2f1dj.mccartney@blueyonder.co.uk> References: <53160.91.85.218.30.1532098121.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <571c304c70j.mccartney@blueyonder.co.uk> <63547f05-d6dc-1964-4985-eb3413348596@dotcodotukat.co.uk> <571c9b2f1dj.mccartney@blueyonder.co.uk> Message-ID: <571d1749f5j.mccartney@blueyonder.co.uk> In article <571c9b2f1dj.mccartney at blueyonder.co.uk>, John McCartney via Virtualacorn-list wrote: > I've just picked up a personal e-mail from Bob but am > preoccupied with landscapers who have started today. I'll > put images on Dropbox later today. Here's the link: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/dmh2vk6l1u77jdt/AADZGt_82hll1XDtpXzha-Y3a?dl=0 I'm assuming that everyone on this list can access Dropbox from Windows or a Mac. If you're reading this in RISC OS, change the final 0 (zero) to a 1 (one) so that it downloads in NetSurf as a ZIP file. For Bob's benefit, the red boxes in BrokenQuote show where Pluto loses the threading level colour after the first line of the paragraph. The black arrows indicate the presence of a single return instead of a double one. In BrokenThread, the arrows show where your posts appear without being linked to the one(s) you're replying to. From the headers in your posts, it seems that you've just copied and pasted the bits you want to refer to because there isn't a line starting with "In-Reply-To:" Even if you *are* using web mail, there is a button to generate a proper reply, at least there is in the few systems I've seen. I hope this clarifies things for you, Bob. John -- John McCartney j.mccartney at blueyonder.co.uk From ardler at argonet.co.uk Wed Jul 25 16:49:05 2018 From: ardler at argonet.co.uk (Bob Ardler) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2018 16:49:05 +0100 (BST) Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients Message-ID: <50064.91.85.218.30.1532533745.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> 3rd shot, as "Reply all" was rejected for "too many recipients": > John McCartney wrote: > >> I've just picked up a personal e-mail from Bob but am >> preoccupied with landscapers who have started today. I'll >> put images on Dropbox later today. > > Here's the link: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/dmh2vk6l1u77jdt/AADZGt_82hll1XDtpXzha-Y3a?dl=0 > > I'm assuming that everyone on this list can access Dropbox > from Windows or a Mac. If you're reading this in RISC OS, > change the final 0 (zero) to a 1 (one) so that it downloads > in NetSurf as a ZIP file. Couldn't see how to change 0 to 1 without a self-email so did that. > For Bob's benefit, the red boxes in BrokenQuote show where > Pluto loses the threading level colour after the first line > of the paragraph. The black arrows indicate the presence of > a single return instead of a double one. Caused by differences in line-length or the CR/LF thing? Loss of all but the first >s ocasionally happens here. My 5space inset newpara was to replace tabs and reduce scrolling. Didn't know it was a sin, shall incur blackarrow no more. > In BrokenThread, the arrows show where your posts appear > without being linked to the one(s) you're replying to. From > the headers in your posts, it seems that you've just copied > and pasted the bits you want to refer to because there > isn't a line starting with "In-Reply-To:" This may be a daft misunderstanding: one email in the thread was From: sender at ownadr, not senderviaVAlist, so just for this thread I used Compose instead of Reply, thinking that Subject:?Re: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients would continue the thread -- forgetting that Pluto etc handle threading by electronic tag. > Even if you *are* using web mail, there is a button to > generate a proper reply, at least there is in the few > systems I've seen. Yes, back to the Reply button used on all other threads. No: seems the "Reply all" button's needed here. > I hope this clarifies things for you, Bob. Everything except what causes quote-mechanisms to clash. Thanks for your trouble. Hope landscaping flourishes. Bob From pnyoung at ormail.co.uk Wed Jul 25 19:08:54 2018 From: pnyoung at ormail.co.uk (Peter Young) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2018 19:08:54 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients In-Reply-To: <50064.91.85.218.30.1532533745.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> References: <50064.91.85.218.30.1532533745.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> Message-ID: <4f21431d57.pnyoung@pnyoung.ormail.co.uk> On 25 Jul 2018 Bob Ardler via Virtualacorn-list wrote: > 3rd shot, as "Reply all" was rejected for > "too many recipients": >> John McCartney wrote: >> >>> I've just picked up a personal e-mail from Bob but am >>> preoccupied with landscapers who have started today. I'll >>> put images on Dropbox later today. >> >> Here's the link: > https://www.dropbox.com/sh/dmh2vk6l1u77jdt/AADZGt_82hll1XDtpXzha-Y3a?dl=0 >> >> I'm assuming that everyone on this list can access Dropbox >> from Windows or a Mac. If you're reading this in RISC OS, >> change the final 0 (zero) to a 1 (one) so that it downloads >> in NetSurf as a ZIP file. > Couldn't see how to change 0 to 1 without a self-email so > did that. Save the message into StrongED (or maybe Zap), change the "0" into "1" and double-click the line. Bob's your uncle. Best wishes, Peter. -- Peter Young (zfc Au) and family Prestbury, Cheltenham, Glos. GL52, England http://pnyoung.orpheusweb.co.uk pnyoung at ormail.co.uk From atdotcodotuk at dotcodotukat.co.uk Wed Jul 25 21:21:36 2018 From: atdotcodotuk at dotcodotukat.co.uk (Vince M Hudd) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2018 21:21:36 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients In-Reply-To: <50064.91.85.218.30.1532533745.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> References: <50064.91.85.218.30.1532533745.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> Message-ID: <422246c8-84cb-9392-05a9-2f20d6196b87@dotcodotukat.co.uk> On 25/07/18 16:49, Bob Ardler via Virtualacorn-list wrote: > 3rd shot, as "Reply all" was rejected for "too many recipients": It wasn't rejected, it was held by the list server for my attention/approval - you've pre-empted that by reposting separately, though. This brings the thread full circle - look at the subject line and my original post: http://riscository.co.uk/pipermail/virtualacorn-list_riscository.co.uk/2018-July/002696.html So that's ironic. 8) -- Vince M Hudd - Soft Rock Software - www.softrock.co.uk RISCOSitory - www.riscository.com From ardler at argonet.co.uk Thu Jul 26 11:47:23 2018 From: ardler at argonet.co.uk (Bob Ardler) Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2018 11:47:23 +0100 (BST) Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients Message-ID: <49511.91.85.218.30.1532602043.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> Peter Young wrote: re: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/dmh2vk6l1u77jdt/AADZGt_82hll1XDtpXzha-Y3a?dl=0 >>> If you're reading this in RISC OS, >>> change the final 0 (zero) to a 1 (one) so that it downloads >>> in NetSurf as a ZIP file. > >> Couldn't see how to change 0 to 1 without a self-email so >> did that. > > Save the message into StrongED (or maybe Zap), change the > "0" into "1" and double-click the line. Bob's your uncle. Saving into Zap required saving as HTML from Zap. Zap didn't put the URL after the http:// so had to move it. Simpler than the email route. Thanks for the tip. Re the original VMH thread: clicking "Reply" here replies only to the sender you're reading; "Reply all" replies to sender plus list and causes "held for moderation" as Vince M Hudd noted. So you enter the list address by hand, which, if I understand J McC, snaps the thread. Yer carnt win. Bob From atdotcodotuk at dotcodotukat.co.uk Thu Jul 26 12:58:07 2018 From: atdotcodotuk at dotcodotukat.co.uk (Vince Hudd) Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2018 12:58:07 +0100 (BST) Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients In-Reply-To: <49511.91.85.218.30.1532602043.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> References: <49511.91.85.218.30.1532602043.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> Message-ID: <356715746.181632.1532606287339@email.1and1.co.uk> On 26 July 2018 at 11:47 Bob Ardler via Virtualacorn-list wrote: > Re the original VMH thread: clicking "Reply" here replies > only to the sender you're reading; "Reply all" replies to > sender plus list and causes "held for moderation" as Vince > M Hudd noted. So you enter the list address by hand, which, > if I understand J McC, snaps the thread. Yer carnt win. What this shows is that webmail - whether that's in general, or the specific implementation you are using - is somewhat lacking as a day to day email service. This is why a proper email client such as Pluto is a far better way to read email. Out of interest, I've just logged into the webmail service provided by my host to see how it handles list posts, and it showed a similar limitation you describe - though not quite the same. Ultimately, though, it boiled down to the same result of a reply either being sent directly to you, or to both you and the list (the Reply-all). But there is a quick fix in my case which may or may not also work for you/your webmail service: Hit reply-all, then delete the personal recipient from the To field, leaving only the list as a recipient. Indeed, this reply is being composed via my webmail service having done exactly that. From ardler at argonet.co.uk Thu Jul 26 13:34:17 2018 From: ardler at argonet.co.uk (Bob Ardler) Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2018 13:34:17 +0100 (BST) Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients In-Reply-To: <356715746.181632.1532606287339@email.1and1.co.uk> References: <49511.91.85.218.30.1532602043.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <356715746.181632.1532606287339@email.1and1.co.uk> Message-ID: <49746.91.85.218.30.1532608457.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> Vince M Hudd wrote: re: >> Re the original VMH thread: clicking "Reply" here replies >> only to the sender you're reading; "Reply all" replies to >> sender plus list and causes "held for moderation" as Vince >> M Hudd noted. So you enter the list address by hand, which, >> if I understand J McC, snaps the thread. Yer carnt win. > What this shows is that webmail - whether that's in general, or the > specific implementation you are using - is somewhat lacking as a day to > day email service. This is why a proper email client such as Pluto is a > far better way to read email. > > Out of interest, I've just logged into the webmail service provided > by my host to see how it handles list posts, and it showed a similar > limitation you describe - though not quite the same. Ultimately, > though, it boiled down to the same result of a reply either being > sent directly to you, or to both you and the list (the Reply-all). > > But there is a quick fix in my case which may or may not also work for > you/your webmail service: Hit reply-all, then delete the personal > recipient from the To field, leaving only the list as a recipient. > > Indeed, this reply is being composed via my webmail service having done > exactly that. That's weird: a blank "To:" and a "Cc:" to oneself via VAlist etc. Am trying it here. Even if it works, it doesn't explain why "Reply:" has worked in the past, with no "Multiple recipients" message. Well, it didn't -- ERROR: You have not filled in the "To" field. Moved the Cc addr into To:, trying again. From atdotcodotuk at dotcodotukat.co.uk Thu Jul 26 14:17:55 2018 From: atdotcodotuk at dotcodotukat.co.uk (Vince M Hudd) Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2018 14:17:55 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients In-Reply-To: <49746.91.85.218.30.1532608457.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> References: <49511.91.85.218.30.1532602043.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <356715746.181632.1532606287339@email.1and1.co.uk> <49746.91.85.218.30.1532608457.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> Message-ID: <90b7e045-eab8-a98c-bdb9-1d023b9bc878@dotcodotukat.co.uk> On 26/07/2018 13:34, Bob Ardler via Virtualacorn-list wrote: [My suggested work-around for replying just to the list via webmail - which works on my host's webmail, but might not elsewhere] > Even if it works, it doesn't explain why "Reply:" > has worked in the past, with no "Multiple recipients" message. If you've raised that point before, I haven't answered it because I haven't noticed it - sorry. I suspect the change occurred when I altered the list settings to cope with DMARC, a system designed to prevent email spoofing. There's a good chance that it worked for you up until that point - and as a result of that *necessary* change, it now doesn't. -- Vince M Hudd Soft Rock Software - www.softrock.co.uk RISCOSitory - www.riscository.com From ardler at argonet.co.uk Fri Jul 27 09:29:18 2018 From: ardler at argonet.co.uk (Bob Ardler) Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2018 09:29:18 +0100 (BST) Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients In-Reply-To: <90b7e045-eab8-a98c-bdb9-1d023b9bc878@dotcodotukat.co.uk> References: <49511.91.85.218.30.1532602043.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <356715746.181632.1532606287339@email.1and1.co.uk> <49746.91.85.218.30.1532608457.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <90b7e045-eab8-a98c-bdb9-1d023b9bc878@dotcodotukat.co.uk> Message-ID: <49307.91.85.218.30.1532680158.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> Vince M Hudd wrote: Re: >> why "Reply:" >> has worked in the past, with no "Multiple recipients" message. > [snip] > > I suspect the change occurred when I altered the list settings to cope > with DMARC, a system designed to prevent email spoofing. There's a good > chance that it worked for you up until that point - and as a result of > that *necessary* change, it now doesn't. Ah, am slow & getting slower: hadn't connected the items: > Vince M Hudd > Soft Rock Software - www.softrock.co.uk > RISCOSitory - www.riscository.com > Hosted by RISCOSitory/Soft Rock Software > http://www.riscository.com/mailing-lists/ So the complexity of modern programming replaces the old American aintbrokedontfixit epigram with "fix-this-bust-that, cant-be-helped, thats-the-world-today". No, am definitely not complaining. Shall stick to webmail and replutonate only should non-list email require it. Thanks, Vince, for the explanation. From dave at triffid.co.uk Fri Jul 27 11:31:43 2018 From: dave at triffid.co.uk (Dave Symes) Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2018 11:31:43 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients In-Reply-To: <49307.91.85.218.30.1532680158.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> References: <49511.91.85.218.30.1532602043.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <356715746.181632.1532606287339@email.1and1.co.uk> <49746.91.85.218.30.1532608457.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <90b7e045-eab8-a98c-bdb9-1d023b9bc878@dotcodotukat.co.uk> <49307.91.85.218.30.1532680158.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> Message-ID: <571e20f213dave@triffid.co.uk> In article <49307.91.85.218.30.1532680158.squirrel at email.orpheusnet.co.uk>, Bob Ardler via Virtualacorn-list wrote: [Snippy] > No, am definitely not complaining. Shall stick to webmail > and replutonate only should non-list email require it. > Thanks, Vince, for the explanation. Obviously a given, each to their own preferences... But... I have found this thread to be somewhat interesting and a bit weird... Yes as has been noted WebMail has its uses, and even I use it now and again, but to use Webmail as the primary device for internet mail seems very masochistic... particularly when there are excellent and even adequate Mail client apps with far far better facilities than ever found in a WebMail thing... Pluto, MessengerPro, Thunderbird to name just a few. If I scratch my head... anymore, I'll cover my keyboard in dandruff. ;-) Dave -- Dave Triffid From atdotcodotuk at dotcodotukat.co.uk Fri Jul 27 10:29:37 2018 From: atdotcodotuk at dotcodotukat.co.uk (Vince M Hudd) Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2018 10:29:37 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients In-Reply-To: <49307.91.85.218.30.1532680158.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> References: <49511.91.85.218.30.1532602043.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <356715746.181632.1532606287339@email.1and1.co.uk> <49746.91.85.218.30.1532608457.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <90b7e045-eab8-a98c-bdb9-1d023b9bc878@dotcodotukat.co.uk> <49307.91.85.218.30.1532680158.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> Message-ID: <50e14c71-acaa-177f-4bee-4ccc0ee0595a@dotcodotukat.co.uk> On 27/07/18 09:29, Bob Ardler via Virtualacorn-list wrote: > Vince M Hudd wrote: [On why what used to work for Bob now doesn't - caused by the changes for DMARC] > So the complexity of modern programming replaces the old > American aintbrokedontfixit epigram with "fix-this-bust-that, > cant-be-helped, thats-the-world-today". Except in this case (and countless other mailing lists) it wasn't a simple as that. Things *were* broken, and needed to be fixed. The way email works was flawed: it left open a gaping wide hole that spammers and fraudsters could easily exploit. Steps are being taken to deal with that, such as DMARC. That in turn meant this list and all those others had to be changed, unless they wanted to be broken by DMARC. If this causes problems for you, it's because you are using a system for email that has functional limitations. Historically, webmail was designed simply as a web-based means to access a normal mailbox using IMAP - but being web-based it's exactly like just about every other web-based alternative to a proper desktop application: greatly limited by comparison, both in speed and in features. If you wish to continue using webmail, that's entirely up to you - but when it doesn't work or doesn't do what you expect, remember that it's *your choice* to use something that just isn't up to the job. -- Vince M Hudd - Soft Rock Software - www.softrock.co.uk RISCOSitory - www.riscository.com From steffen at huber-net.de Fri Jul 27 22:21:48 2018 From: steffen at huber-net.de (Steffen Huber) Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2018 23:21:48 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients In-Reply-To: <571e20f213dave@triffid.co.uk> References: <49511.91.85.218.30.1532602043.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <356715746.181632.1532606287339@email.1and1.co.uk> <49746.91.85.218.30.1532608457.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <90b7e045-eab8-a98c-bdb9-1d023b9bc878@dotcodotukat.co.uk> <49307.91.85.218.30.1532680158.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <571e20f213dave@triffid.co.uk> Message-ID: <330061398.68209.1532726509030@communicator.strato.de> > Dave Symes via Virtualacorn-list wrote: > > Yes as has been noted WebMail has its uses, and even I use it now and > again, but to use Webmail as the primary device for internet mail seems > very masochistic... particularly when there are excellent and even > adequate Mail client apps with far far better facilities than ever found > in a WebMail thing... > Pluto, MessengerPro, Thunderbird to name just a few. I fear that, for modern WebMail systems, it turns out the WebMail is at least as powerful as Pluto and MessengerPro. And IIRC, Pluto is still tied to POP3 which is a nightmare if used from more than one device. At least my WebMail application is able to properly support the various character encodings, something MessengerPro still refuses to do. Oh, and it can be accessed with strong encryption. Steffen -- Steffen Huber LambdaComm System ? Welcome to Trollinger Country steffen at huber-net.de Private homepage http://www.huber-net.de/ RISC OS Blog http://riscosblog.huber-net.de/ From Stuartlists at orpheusinternet.co.uk Fri Jul 27 23:21:43 2018 From: Stuartlists at orpheusinternet.co.uk (lists) Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2018 23:21:43 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients In-Reply-To: <330061398.68209.1532726509030@communicator.strato.de> References: <49511.91.85.218.30.1532602043.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <356715746.181632.1532606287339@email.1and1.co.uk> <49746.91.85.218.30.1532608457.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <90b7e045-eab8-a98c-bdb9-1d023b9bc878@dotcodotukat.co.uk> <49307.91.85.218.30.1532680158.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <571e20f213dave@triffid.co.uk> <330061398.68209.1532726509030@communicator.strato.de> Message-ID: <571e61f28aStuartlists@orpheusinternet.co.uk> In article <330061398.68209.1532726509030 at communicator.strato.de>, Steffen Huber via Virtualacorn-list wrote: > I fear that, for modern WebMail systems, it turns out the WebMail is > at least as powerful as Pluto and MessengerPro. And IIRC, Pluto is > still tied to POP3 which is a nightmare if used from more than one > device. !Pluto is a reading/sending application and is tied only to whatever application is used to actually fetch mail from a server, or despatch to a server. In my case I use !POPstar which, whilst a POP3 client, can be configured to leave mail on the server after a fetch if required. -- Stuart Winsor Tools With A Mission sending tools across the world http://www.twam.co.uk/ From cvjazz at waitrose.com Sat Jul 28 00:20:00 2018 From: cvjazz at waitrose.com (Chris Newman) Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2018 00:20:00 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients In-Reply-To: <571e61f28aStuartlists@orpheusinternet.co.uk> References: <49511.91.85.218.30.1532602043.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <356715746.181632.1532606287339@email.1and1.co.uk> <49746.91.85.218.30.1532608457.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <90b7e045-eab8-a98c-bdb9-1d023b9bc878@dotcodotukat.co.uk> <49307.91.85.218.30.1532680158.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <571e20f213dave@triffid.co.uk> <330061398.68209.1532726509030@communicator.strato.de> <571e61f28aStuartlists@orpheusinternet.co.uk> Message-ID: <571e6748d1cvjazz@waitrose.com> In article <571e61f28aStuartlists at orpheusinternet.co.uk>, lists via Virtualacorn-list wrote: > In article <330061398.68209.1532726509030 at communicator.strato.de>, > Steffen Huber via Virtualacorn-list > wrote: > > I fear that, for modern WebMail systems, it turns out the WebMail is > > at least as powerful as Pluto and MessengerPro. And IIRC, Pluto is > > still tied to POP3 which is a nightmare if used from more than one > > device. > !Pluto is a reading/sending application and is tied only to whatever > application is used to actually fetch mail from a server, or despatch to a > server. In my case I use !POPstar which, whilst a POP3 client, can be > configured to leave mail on the server after a fetch if required. Ditto with Netfetch/Hermes -- Chris From steffen at huber-net.de Sat Jul 28 01:50:09 2018 From: steffen at huber-net.de (Steffen Huber) Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2018 02:50:09 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients In-Reply-To: <571e61f28aStuartlists@orpheusinternet.co.uk> References: <49511.91.85.218.30.1532602043.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <356715746.181632.1532606287339@email.1and1.co.uk> <49746.91.85.218.30.1532608457.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <90b7e045-eab8-a98c-bdb9-1d023b9bc878@dotcodotukat.co.uk> <49307.91.85.218.30.1532680158.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <571e20f213dave@triffid.co.uk> <330061398.68209.1532726509030@communicator.strato.de> <571e61f28aStuartlists@orpheusinternet.co.uk> Message-ID: <900409356.68849.1532739009812@communicator.strato.de> > lists via Virtualacorn-list wrote: > > > In article <330061398.68209.1532726509030 at communicator.strato.de>, > Steffen Huber via Virtualacorn-list > wrote: > > I fear that, for modern WebMail systems, it turns out the WebMail is > > at least as powerful as Pluto and MessengerPro. And IIRC, Pluto is > > still tied to POP3 which is a nightmare if used from more than one > > device. > > !Pluto is a reading/sending application and is tied only to whatever > application is used to actually fetch mail from a server, or despatch to a > server. In my case I use !POPstar which, whilst a POP3 client, can be > configured to leave mail on the server after a fetch if required. "Leaving mail on the server" is just not enough. I need to sort mail into folders. I need to have the same read/unread state across all devices. If I delete a mail on one device, it should be also deleted on the server. In short: I need IMAP. Technically, in Pluto's current state of handling fetching/sending from/to the server, it is impossible to properly support IMAP. I guess it is unlikely that someone will implement it in the near future. I used Messenger Pro for quite a while, and mostly liked it (especially its mailing list support and the seamless integration of mail and news). However, it is firmly stuck in the 90s. While - in contrast to Pluto - it supports IMAP, it has reportedly big performance issues when dealing with big mailboxes (mine is over 10 GiB). And it has broken encoding handling (last time I looked). And, IIRC, the server connector still uses the completely outdated SecureSockets module. If NetSurf gains enough JavaScript capabilities, it will immediately become the premier RISC OS email solution. This is really sad considering that both Messenger Pro and Pluto were ahead of the PC competition in the early days. Steffen -- Steffen Huber LambdaComm System ? Welcome to Trollinger Country steffen at huber-net.de Private homepage http://www.huber-net.de/ RISC OS Blog http://riscosblog.huber-net.de/ From jn.ml.vac.83 at wingsandbeaks.org.uk Sat Jul 28 09:40:08 2018 From: jn.ml.vac.83 at wingsandbeaks.org.uk (Jeremy Nicoll - ml VA) Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2018 09:40:08 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients In-Reply-To: <330061398.68209.1532726509030@communicator.strato.de> References: <49511.91.85.218.30.1532602043.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <356715746.181632.1532606287339@email.1and1.co.uk> <49746.91.85.218.30.1532608457.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <90b7e045-eab8-a98c-bdb9-1d023b9bc878@dotcodotukat.co.uk> <49307.91.85.218.30.1532680158.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <571e20f213dave@triffid.co.uk> <330061398.68209.1532726509030@communicator.strato.de> Message-ID: <721bddb15162eace05dac8e051abd052@wingsandbeaks.org.uk> On 2018-07-27 22:21, Steffen Huber via Virtualacorn-list wrote: >> Dave Symes via Virtualacorn-list >> wrote: >> >> Yes as has been noted WebMail has its uses, and even I use it now and >> again, but to use Webmail as the primary device for internet mail >> seems >> very masochistic... particularly when there are excellent and even >> adequate Mail client apps with far far better facilities than ever >> found >> in a WebMail thing... >> Pluto, MessengerPro, Thunderbird to name just a few. > > I fear that, for modern WebMail systems, it turns out the WebMail is > at least as powerful as Pluto and MessengerPro... Yes. I use two WebmMail systems - RoundCube (which is open source and many mail providers use), & fastmail.com's own/proprietary system. The latter looks nice and is very fast (you can easily forget you're using a web-based thing) and its searching and filtering capabilities are just as good as a local client. The things I miss in both of these are: - you can't edit the contents of a received mail (eg to change the subject line to something meaningful, or adjust the threading) - that they don't also handle nntp news. -- Jeremy Nicoll - my opinions are my own From atdotcodotuk at dotcodotukat.co.uk Sat Jul 28 12:04:32 2018 From: atdotcodotuk at dotcodotukat.co.uk (Vince M Hudd) Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2018 12:04:32 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Webmail vs a dedicated email client + POP3 vs IMAP (Was: Multiple recipients) In-Reply-To: <571e61f28aStuartlists@orpheusinternet.co.uk> References: <49511.91.85.218.30.1532602043.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <356715746.181632.1532606287339@email.1and1.co.uk> <49746.91.85.218.30.1532608457.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <90b7e045-eab8-a98c-bdb9-1d023b9bc878@dotcodotukat.co.uk> <49307.91.85.218.30.1532680158.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <571e20f213dave@triffid.co.uk> <330061398.68209.1532726509030@communicator.strato.de> <571e61f28aStuartlists@orpheusinternet.co.uk> Message-ID: <972f14de-7eaa-3ab1-5c98-ef404b697d0a@dotcodotukat.co.uk> On 27/07/18 23:21, lists via Virtualacorn-list wrote: > In article <330061398.68209.1532726509030 at communicator.strato.de>, > Steffen Huber via Virtualacorn-list > wrote: >> I fear that, for modern WebMail systems, it turns out the WebMail is >> at least as powerful as Pluto and MessengerPro. While this is almost certainly true in some cases - particularly where the webmail system is one of the primary products to draw people in to the provider's services, such as Google and Gmail[1]. However, the webmail offerings I've seen provided by ISPs to their customers tend to be somewhat more basic. I believe it is something more along those lines that Bob is using. [1] I have a gmail address which only sees very limited use, and I access it from my desktop using IMAP. I don't see the webby interface, so I don't really know what it's like - but despite my general dislike of Google, their developers are pretty damned good at what they do, so I imagine it's a pretty good system. >> And IIRC, Pluto is still tied to POP3 which is a nightmare if used from more than one >> device. > !Pluto is a reading/sending application and is tied only to whatever > application is used to actually fetch mail from a server, or despatch to a > server. That pretty much ties it to POP3 for receiving emails, as Steffen said. For it to be able to handle IMAP, it would pretty much have to speak directly to the mail server for almost every action it carries out on the contents of the mailbox. > In my case I use !POPstar which, whilst a POP3 client, can be > configured to leave mail on the server after a fetch if required. Before I switched to using IMAP I did similar, but it was always a flawed approach. -- Vince M Hudd - Soft Rock Software - www.softrock.co.uk RISCOSitory - www.riscository.com From druck at druck.org.uk Sun Jul 29 09:31:21 2018 From: druck at druck.org.uk (David J. Ruck) Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2018 09:31:21 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients In-Reply-To: <900409356.68849.1532739009812@communicator.strato.de> References: <49511.91.85.218.30.1532602043.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <356715746.181632.1532606287339@email.1and1.co.uk> <49746.91.85.218.30.1532608457.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <90b7e045-eab8-a98c-bdb9-1d023b9bc878@dotcodotukat.co.uk> <49307.91.85.218.30.1532680158.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <571e20f213dave@triffid.co.uk> <330061398.68209.1532726509030@communicator.strato.de> <571e61f28aStuartlists@orpheusinternet.co.uk> <900409356.68849.1532739009812@communicator.strato.de> Message-ID: On 28/07/2018 01:50, Steffen Huber via Virtualacorn-list wrote: > "Leaving mail on the server" is just not enough. I need to sort > mail into folders. I need to have the same read/unread state > across all devices. If I delete a mail on one device, it should be > also deleted on the server. In short: I need IMAP. Technically, > in Pluto's current state of handling fetching/sending from/to the > server, it is impossible to properly support IMAP. I guess it is > unlikely that someone will implement it in the near future. > > I used Messenger Pro for quite a while, and mostly liked it > (especially its mailing list support and the seamless integration > of mail and news). However, it is firmly stuck in the 90s. > While - in contrast to Pluto - it supports IMAP, it has reportedly > big performance issues when dealing with big mailboxes (mine is > over 10 GiB). And it has broken encoding handling (last time > I looked). And, IIRC, the server connector still uses the > completely outdated SecureSockets module. The obvious solution would be to set up a Linux Raspberry Pi as a local mail server, which downloads email from your ISP and shares it via IMAP to all clients. As it's local SecureSockets isn't needed from RISC OS, but a VPN can be set up to allow external secure access from your mobile devices. As this is a VA list, there may be a PC IMAP sever which could do the same, but I haven't looked. > If NetSurf gains enough JavaScript capabilities, it will > immediately become the premier RISC OS email solution. This > is really sad considering that both Messenger Pro and > Pluto were ahead of the PC competition in the early days. I've still not come across any webmail service which is a patch on a dedicated email program. Cheers ---David -- Email: druck at druck.org.uk Phone: +44-(0)7974 108301 From steffen at huber-net.de Tue Jul 31 15:49:44 2018 From: steffen at huber-net.de (Steffen Huber) Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2018 16:49:44 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients In-Reply-To: References: <49511.91.85.218.30.1532602043.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <356715746.181632.1532606287339@email.1and1.co.uk> <49746.91.85.218.30.1532608457.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <90b7e045-eab8-a98c-bdb9-1d023b9bc878@dotcodotukat.co.uk> <49307.91.85.218.30.1532680158.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <571e20f213dave@triffid.co.uk> <330061398.68209.1532726509030@communicator.strato.de> <571e61f28aStuartlists@orpheusinternet.co.uk> <900409356.68849.1532739009812@communicator.strato.de> Message-ID: <1840513606.181910.1533048584132@communicator.strato.de> > "David J. Ruck via Virtualacorn-list" wrote [snip] > The obvious solution would be to set up a Linux Raspberry Pi as a local > mail server, which downloads email from your ISP and shares it via IMAP > to all clients. As it's local SecureSockets isn't needed from RISC OS, > but a VPN can be set up to allow external secure access from your mobile > devices. > > As this is a VA list, there may be a PC IMAP sever which could do the > same, but I haven't looked. Unfortunately, this "obvious solution" only solves - despite the significant install and management overhead it creates - one single problem: Messenger Pro's insecureness. It does not magically allow Pluto to sensibly communicate with IMAP, and it does not solve the slowness of Messenger Pro handling large IMAP mailboxes, and it does not solve Messenger Pro's broken encoding handling. There are a few Qt-based open source email clients, maybe it would be worth improving the Qt port to make those really usable. Or maybe add secure IMAP and SMTP to TapirMail. > > If NetSurf gains enough JavaScript capabilities, it will > > immediately become the premier RISC OS email solution. This > > is really sad considering that both Messenger Pro and > > Pluto were ahead of the PC competition in the early days. > > I've still not come across any webmail service which is a patch on a > dedicated email program. What "dedicated email program" do you (or anyone reading this!) favour? I am in a seemingly constant search for something sensible. Things I tried include Messenger Pro (Windows), Opera Mail, Foxmail, Mailbird, eM Client, Pegasus Mail, Claws, Thunderbird and Columba. Claws is my favourite, but still far from ideal. Oh, and if you know a good client for Android... Steffen -- Steffen Huber LambdaComm System ? Welcome to Trollinger Country steffen at huber-net.de Private homepage http://www.huber-net.de/ RISC OS Blog http://riscosblog.huber-net.de/ From dave at triffid.co.uk Mon Jul 2 17:46:26 2018 From: dave at triffid.co.uk (Dave Symes) Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2018 17:46:26 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Boot problem In-Reply-To: <5710543d34cvjazz@waitrose.com> References: <570f6dd94acvjazz@waitrose.com> <20180628215623.C36B421D7A@outbound-queue-adx-1.mail.thdo.gradwell.net> <5710543d34cvjazz@waitrose.com> Message-ID: <5711635a57dave@triffid.co.uk> In article <5710543d34cvjazz at waitrose.com>, Chris Newman via Virtualacorn-list wrote: [Snippy] > It took a while to get A Round Tuiit as I have been taking advantage of > the hot weather & doing some repairs to our ancient conservatory wood > work. Dig out a bit, fill a bit, paint a bit. Then there's the ages you > have to wait for things to set & dry. What fun. I had to replace some > ancient hinges. The originals were packed out with pieces cut from a > Wills Woodbine fag packet (anyone remember them). Chiselit, Bodgit & > Leggit had obviously cut the holes too big. Modern hinges are slightly > bigger than the originals & the screw holes don't line up. More filling > & sanding. Hey ho! Reading the above I have to asume you are a mere DIYer!... Dave -- Dave Triffid From cvjazz at waitrose.com Mon Jul 2 22:02:05 2018 From: cvjazz at waitrose.com (Chris Newman) Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2018 22:02:05 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Boot problem In-Reply-To: <5711635a57dave@triffid.co.uk> References: <570f6dd94acvjazz@waitrose.com> <20180628215623.C36B421D7A@outbound-queue-adx-1.mail.thdo.gradwell.net> <5710543d34cvjazz@waitrose.com> <5711635a57dave@triffid.co.uk> Message-ID: <57117ac18dcvjazz@waitrose.com> In article <5711635a57dave at triffid.co.uk>, Dave Symes via Virtualacorn-list wrote: > In article <5710543d34cvjazz at waitrose.com>, > Chris Newman via Virtualacorn-list > wrote: > [Snippy] > > It took a while to get A Round Tuiit as I have been taking advantage of > > the hot weather & doing some repairs to our ancient conservatory wood > > work. Dig out a bit, fill a bit, paint a bit. Then there's the ages you > > have to wait for things to set & dry. What fun. I had to replace some > > ancient hinges. The originals were packed out with pieces cut from a > > Wills Woodbine fag packet (anyone remember them). Chiselit, Bodgit & > > Leggit had obviously cut the holes too big. Modern hinges are slightly > > bigger than the originals & the screw holes don't line up. More filling > > & sanding. Hey ho! > Reading the above I have to asume you are a mere DIYer!... Mere being the operative word, methinks. -- Chris From dave at triffid.co.uk Tue Jul 3 07:54:55 2018 From: dave at triffid.co.uk (Dave Symes) Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2018 07:54:55 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Boot problem In-Reply-To: <57117ac18dcvjazz@waitrose.com> References: <570f6dd94acvjazz@waitrose.com> <20180628215623.C36B421D7A@outbound-queue-adx-1.mail.thdo.gradwell.net> <5710543d34cvjazz@waitrose.com> <5711635a57dave@triffid.co.uk> <57117ac18dcvjazz@waitrose.com> Message-ID: <5711b108a1dave@triffid.co.uk> In article <57117ac18dcvjazz at waitrose.com>, Chris Newman via Virtualacorn-list wrote: > In article <5711635a57dave at triffid.co.uk>, > Dave Symes via Virtualacorn-list > wrote: > > In article <5710543d34cvjazz at waitrose.com>, > > Chris Newman via Virtualacorn-list > > wrote: > > [Snippy] > > > It took a while to get A Round Tuiit as I have been taking advantage > > > of the hot weather & doing some repairs to our ancient conservatory > > > wood work. Dig out a bit, fill a bit, paint a bit. Then there's the > > > ages you have to wait for things to set & dry. What fun. I had to > > > replace some ancient hinges. The originals were packed out with > > > pieces cut from a Wills Woodbine fag packet (anyone remember them). > > > Chiselit, Bodgit & Leggit had obviously cut the holes too big. > > > Modern hinges are slightly bigger than the originals & the screw > > > holes don't line up. More filling & sanding. Hey ho! > > Reading the above I have to asume you are a mere DIYer!... > Mere being the operative word, methinks. > Chris ;-) Small apology, didn't intend it to appear so pejorative... (Maybe) ;-) Having been a Building construction and maintenance pro for over 50 years, and 'wunce' upon a time the Grumpmaster, I sometimes still bristle at DIYer comments. :-) (My bad). Dave FWIW. Back in the days, an old fag packet whatever brand was a most useful thing to have in your tool box. 1) To contain the fags, then when empty... 2) To use for hinge and lock shims, etc. 3) To write material(x) lists and dims on. 4) If the fags packet had a loose foil liner... And... If some careless (person) blew a fuse (No one carried spares) the foil liner could be rolled around the blown fuse cartridge and put in to temporarily replace the fuse... Or twist rolled to put in a fuse box. Yes I know, but I'm commenting on long ago... Later when I ran my own business I did carry a pot of spare fuses and fuse wires. (x) That's material in the sense of timber, cement, ironmongery etc, and not a bolt of cloth. :-) Oh yes, and even back then we had boot problems. D. -- Dave Triffid From atdotcodotuk at dotcodotukat.co.uk Tue Jul 3 10:16:21 2018 From: atdotcodotuk at dotcodotukat.co.uk (Vince M Hudd) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2018 10:16:21 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients Message-ID: I've just spotted and approved a couple of messages that were held for moderation by the mailing list server. Both were dated 28th June, so they've been waiting around five days for me to notice. The reason they were held is because the system is set up to not allow messages with multiple recipients (so more than one address in the 'To' line, or a combination of 'To' and 'CC') Please try to avoid doing this. If you really must send your message to the list and somewhere else, use BCC for the other address(es). -- Vince M Hudd - Soft Rock Software - www.softrock.co.uk RISCOSitory - www.riscository.com From pnyoung at ormail.co.uk Tue Jul 3 10:51:39 2018 From: pnyoung at ormail.co.uk (Peter Young) Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2018 10:51:39 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 3 Jul 2018 Vince M Hudd via Virtualacorn-list wrote: > I've just spotted and approved a couple of messages that were held for > moderation by the mailing list server. Both were dated 28th June, so > they've been waiting around five days for me to notice. > The reason they were held is because the system is set up to not allow > messages with multiple recipients (so more than one address in the 'To' > line, or a combination of 'To' and 'CC') > Please try to avoid doing this. If you really must send your message to > the list and somewhere else, use BCC for the other address(es). Or use ImpEmail to compose a MailMerge message. http://sinenomine.co.uk/software/ bcc is OK up to a point. However, I send emails to 45 members of a walking group. If I use bcc to do this I find that all messages sent to gmail users bounce. Presumably, if the words "think" and "gmail" go in the same sentence, gmail thinks that anything sent to so many recipients must be spam. ImpEmail, however, produces 45 separate emails. Best wishes, Peter. -- Peter Young (zfc Pt) and family Prestbury, Cheltenham, Glos. GL52, England http://pnyoung.orpheusweb.co.uk pnyoung at ormail.co.uk From atdotcodotuk at dotcodotukat.co.uk Tue Jul 3 11:28:40 2018 From: atdotcodotuk at dotcodotukat.co.uk (Vince M Hudd) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2018 11:28:40 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4317d660-3335-d75c-984a-e88cbd452c71@dotcodotukat.co.uk> On 03/07/18 10:51, Peter Young via Virtualacorn-list wrote: >> Please try to avoid doing this. If you really must send your message to >> the list and somewhere else, use BCC for the other address(es). > Or use ImpEmail to compose a MailMerge message. > http://sinenomine.co.uk/software/ > bcc is OK up to a point. However, I send emails to 45 members of a walking > group. [snip problem doing that and ImpEmail as the solution] That's a slightly different issue, though - ImpEmail is for sending messages to a set of addresses in a database; it's a one-way thing. I'm talking about people replying to messages on this *discussion* list and including another address on the reply. -- Vince M Hudd - Soft Rock Software - www.softrock.co.uk RISCOSitory - www.riscository.com From vatory at abbeypress.co.uk Tue Jul 3 14:19:49 2018 From: vatory at abbeypress.co.uk (Jim Nagel) Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2018 14:19:49 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Vince M Hudd via Virtualacorn-list wrote on 3 Jul: > ... the system is set up to not allow messages with multiple > recipients (so more than one address in the 'To' line, or a > combination of 'To' and 'CC') > Please try to avoid doing this. If you really must send your message to > the list and somewhere else, use BCC for the other address(es). In MPro, one of the options when reading a mailinglist message is to "reply to group and include copy to sender" (Ctrl-click on the button). The result is TO the list and CC the individual. Would it be easy to set up the Riscository system to disallow messages with *more than 2* addresses total in TO and CC? -- Jim Nagel www.archivemag.co.uk From bbailey at argonet.co.uk Tue Jul 3 18:01:16 2018 From: bbailey at argonet.co.uk (Brian) Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2018 18:01:16 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] VRPC on Linux Message-ID: <5711e88bf4bbailey@argonet.co.uk> Could some kind soul bring me up to date re VRPC on Linux. Pros and cons - perhaps. Presently running VRPC RISCOS 4.02 on Win 7, mostly very satisfied, but wish to be forearmed re possible eventuality of being forced onto Win 10, sometime. Brian From druck at druck.org.uk Tue Jul 3 20:33:29 2018 From: druck at druck.org.uk (David J. Ruck) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2018 20:33:29 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] VRPC on Linux In-Reply-To: <5711e88bf4bbailey@argonet.co.uk> References: <5711e88bf4bbailey@argonet.co.uk> Message-ID: On 03/07/2018 18:01, Brian via Virtualacorn-list wrote: > Could some kind soul bring me up to date re VRPC on Linux. Pros and cons - > perhaps. VRPC isn't available for Linux, try asking about RPCemu on the newsgroups. ---druck -- Email: druck at druck.org.uk Phone: +44-(0)7974 108301 From atdotcodotuk at dotcodotukat.co.uk Wed Jul 4 09:10:33 2018 From: atdotcodotuk at dotcodotukat.co.uk (Vince M Hudd) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2018 09:10:33 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <94a09475-d3e1-def0-1459-6e422f287395@dotcodotukat.co.uk> On 03/07/18 14:19, Jim Nagel via Virtualacorn-list wrote: > Vince M Hudd via Virtualacorn-list wrote on 3 Jul: >> ... the system is set up to not allow messages with multiple >> recipients > In MPro, one of the options when reading a mailinglist message is to > "reply to group and include copy to sender" (Ctrl-click on the > button). The result is TO the list and CC the individual. What a strange option. What good reason is there to - in effect - send someone two copies of your reply? > Would it be easy to set up the Riscository system to disallow messages > with *more than 2* addresses total in TO and CC? Without checking, yes, I believe I can set a threshold number. I'm not convinced I should, though. I think it might be better if Messenger Pro was fixed so that it didn't have such a rude* button, unless I can be convinced it is a sensible option, and that increasing the list threshold is equally sensible. * Speaking as a subscriber to the mailing list, I would consider it rude of someone to send me a second copy of a reply I'm going to receive anyway. -- Vince M Hudd - Soft Rock Software - www.softrock.co.uk RISCOSitory - www.riscository.com From j.mccartney at blueyonder.co.uk Wed Jul 4 10:34:51 2018 From: j.mccartney at blueyonder.co.uk (John McCartney) Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2018 10:34:51 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5712438220j.mccartney@blueyonder.co.uk> In article , Vince M Hudd via Virtualacorn-list wrote: > I've just spotted and approved a couple of messages that > were held for moderation by the mailing list server. > Both were dated 28th June, so they've been waiting > around five days for me to notice. My reply was thus affected. However, Chris saw my reply straight away but I didn't see it until yesterday. John -- John McCartney j.mccartney at blueyonder.co.uk From jn.ml.vac.83 at wingsandbeaks.org.uk Wed Jul 4 10:39:28 2018 From: jn.ml.vac.83 at wingsandbeaks.org.uk (Jeremy Nicoll - ml VA) Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2018 10:39:28 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients In-Reply-To: <94a09475-d3e1-def0-1459-6e422f287395@dotcodotukat.co.uk> References: <94a09475-d3e1-def0-1459-6e422f287395@dotcodotukat.co.uk> Message-ID: <7d9830f569bd92f07fa0da8d6a2b2118@wingsandbeaks.org.uk> On 2018-07-04 09:10, Vince M Hudd via Virtualacorn-list wrote: > On 03/07/18 14:19, Jim Nagel via Virtualacorn-list wrote: >> Vince M Hudd via Virtualacorn-list wrote on 3 Jul: > >>> ... the system is set up to not allow messages with multiple >>> recipients > >> In MPro, one of the options when reading a mailinglist message is to >> "reply to group and include copy to sender" (Ctrl-click on the >> button). The result is TO the list and CC the individual. > > What a strange option. What good reason is there to - in effect - send > someone two copies of your reply? It's a good question, and personally I agree with you(*). But your email to this list, which I'm replying to, has 'too many' headers: From Vince via VA list Sender VA list To VA list Copy Vince Reply-To VA list and in the webamil system I'm using now, 'Reply' and 'Reply All' buttons are available, with different effects - Reply is back to the list and ReplyAll is list and you. You can see how many users would think ReplyAll made sense. * some email systems won't in fact deliver two copies - they de-dup on the mail provider's server if both copies would have ended up in the same 'mailbox' (that being a concept whose implementation varies between systems, I've found). So if someone sends me a private copy of the reply to a list mail quite I often I only receive that and not the public copy as well and that means that because of no list-server-type headers in the private copy, it's not filtered properly when it arrives here. The de-dup logic happens if for example I have what the mail provider regards as aliases and eg a personal email address me at mydomain and a list address mylistsubs at mydomain are both routed to a server mailbox eg mybigmailbox at mydomain and it's that mailbox I collect mail from. It also means that if one has two family members both subscribed to a single mail list, but their mails handled via provider aliases and routed to a single family mailbox, only one person will ever see each message. -- Jeremy Nicoll - my opinions are my own From atdotcodotuk at dotcodotukat.co.uk Wed Jul 4 14:15:41 2018 From: atdotcodotuk at dotcodotukat.co.uk (Vince M Hudd) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2018 14:15:41 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients In-Reply-To: <7d9830f569bd92f07fa0da8d6a2b2118@wingsandbeaks.org.uk> References: <94a09475-d3e1-def0-1459-6e422f287395@dotcodotukat.co.uk> <7d9830f569bd92f07fa0da8d6a2b2118@wingsandbeaks.org.uk> Message-ID: <624ee5b0-a288-0708-ac23-465528324bbd@dotcodotukat.co.uk> On 04/07/2018 10:39, Jeremy Nicoll - ml VA via Virtualacorn-list wrote: > On 2018-07-04 09:10, Vince M Hudd via Virtualacorn-list wrote: >> On 03/07/18 14:19, Jim Nagel via Virtualacorn-list wrote: [The list holds messages with >1 recipient for moderation] [Various snips] >>> In MPro, one of the options when reading a mailinglist message is to >>> "reply to group and include copy to sender" (Ctrl-click on the >>> button).? The result is TO the list and CC the individual. When I read that quickly earlier and replied, I didn't spot the need to ctrl-click the button; I read it as having a separate button to do it. But the need to ctrl-click means that while Messenger Pro has this - to me odd - option, it does require extra effort on the part of the sender to use it. (It appears Thunderbird also has this option, via a drop down menu on the 'Reply List' button - which also requires extra effort to use.) So the obvious solution is for people not to put in that extra effort, and just use the mailing list properly. 8) >> What a strange option. What good reason is there to - in effect - send >> someone two copies of your reply? > It's a good question, and personally I agree with you(*). > But your email to this list, which I'm replying to, has 'too many' > headers: > ? From?????? Vince via VA list > ? Sender???? VA list > ? To???????? VA list > ? Copy?????? Vince > ? Reply-To?? VA list Without spending time looking into what Mailman does, and instead going from memory for some things and guessing for others: From is "munged" to show the list address with the sender's name so that the from being the original sender's address doesn't upset some mail servers. This is the main DMARC solution. Sender could be removed, but the recommended setting is to include it. I think it essentially overwrites any existing sender in the message (if there is one) so that any bounces come to the list server instead of the original sender. I don't think there's a setting for the To line. The CC, I'm *guessing*, is used as a way to include the actual sender's address in the headers in such a way that it would be useful. For example if you specifically wanted to send me an off-list reply. The Reply-To I could change - IIRC the current setting isn't the recommended one, but I set it like that deliberately. Originally this was for old software like ArgoNET's PostyUser, which has no understanding of mailing lists - and I later discovered that Outlook Express also needed the same setting when investigating a problem someone had reported. Thinking about it, the change for DMARC - which basically puts the list address in the From line - should mean the Reply-To setting can be changed to what it should be, so I'll go through all the RISCOSitory lists and make that change. (I have to log in to this list specifically to send my own messages[1] so I'll change this list straight away. The others I'll do tonight.) [1] I put myself on moderation a while back because a spammer hit on the successful trick of spamming one of the mailing lists with my address in the From line. (I think it was this list, actually.) > * some email systems won't in fact deliver two copies - they de-dup > ? on the mail provider's server if both copies would have ended up > ? in the same 'mailbox' (that being a concept whose implementation > ? varies between systems, I've found). Some email clients have a similar setting. So if a copy is CC'd to the previous poster: * They'll see two copies if their server/client doesn't have the option - which I'd find annoying. * They won't if their server/client does have that option - which means sending the two copies is a pointless thing to do anyway! -- Vince M Hudd Soft Rock Software - www.softrock.co.uk RISCOSitory - www.riscository.com From atdotcodotuk at dotcodotukat.co.uk Wed Jul 4 14:25:37 2018 From: atdotcodotuk at dotcodotukat.co.uk (Vince M Hudd) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2018 14:25:37 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients In-Reply-To: <5712438220j.mccartney@blueyonder.co.uk> References: <5712438220j.mccartney@blueyonder.co.uk> Message-ID: On 04/07/2018 10:34, John McCartney via Virtualacorn-list wrote: > Vince M Hudd via Virtualacorn-list > wrote: >> I've just spotted and approved a couple of messages that >> were held for moderation by the mailing list server. >> Both were dated 28th June, so they've been waiting >> around five days for me to notice. > My reply was thus affected. However, Chris saw my reply > straight away but I didn't see it until yesterday. Yes - that's because the CC doesn't go via the mailing list; that's an email being sent straight from you to the recipient. Had you not done that, the list server would have just passed your message on to the list normally, and you would *both* have seen your reply straight away. (Ish, subject to when/how you fetch mail, etc). -- Vince M Hudd Soft Rock Software - www.softrock.co.uk RISCOSitory - www.riscository.com From atdotcodotuk at dotcodotukat.co.uk Wed Jul 4 14:38:41 2018 From: atdotcodotuk at dotcodotukat.co.uk (Vince M Hudd) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2018 14:38:41 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients In-Reply-To: <624ee5b0-a288-0708-ac23-465528324bbd@dotcodotukat.co.uk> References: <94a09475-d3e1-def0-1459-6e422f287395@dotcodotukat.co.uk> <7d9830f569bd92f07fa0da8d6a2b2118@wingsandbeaks.org.uk> <624ee5b0-a288-0708-ac23-465528324bbd@dotcodotukat.co.uk> Message-ID: <066fd8cb-e2ff-ce52-d17f-2488f04bb362@dotcodotukat.co.uk> On 04/07/2018 14:15, Vince M Hudd via Virtualacorn-list wrote: > The CC, I'm *guessing*, is used as a way to include the actual sender's > address in the headers in such a way that it would be useful. For > example if you specifically wanted to send me an off-list reply. > The Reply-To I could change [...] The default/recommended setting is for it to be set to Poster; now the Reply-to line contains the original poster's email address, and the CC line is no longer present. This is consistent with my guess about that line. I note that going to the extra effort in Thunderbird to "Reply All" no longer adds a CC line - it was replying to all the recipients of the original message, and I wonder if Messenger Pro will behave similarly? If so, the option makes sense now - the inclusion of the CC in the headers (a side effect of the Reply-To setting, which as I said was to be helpful to software from the Dark Ages) was confusing the issue. -- Vince M Hudd Soft Rock Software - www.softrock.co.uk RISCOSitory - www.riscository.com From j.mccartney at blueyonder.co.uk Wed Jul 4 20:08:34 2018 From: j.mccartney at blueyonder.co.uk (John McCartney) Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2018 20:08:34 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients In-Reply-To: References: <5712438220j.mccartney@blueyonder.co.uk> Message-ID: <57127809e3j.mccartney@blueyonder.co.uk> In article , Vince M Hudd via Virtualacorn-list wrote: > > My reply was thus affected. However, Chris saw my reply > > straight away but I didn't see it until yesterday. > Yes - that's because the CC doesn't go via the mailing > list; that's an email being sent straight from you to > the recipient. > Had you not done that, the list server would have just > passed your message on to the list normally, and you > would *both* have seen your reply straight away. (Ish, > subject to when/how you fetch mail, etc). Obvious when it's explained. Thanks Vince, John -- John McCartney j.mccartney at blueyonder.co.uk From vatory at abbeypress.co.uk Wed Jul 11 16:03:07 2018 From: vatory at abbeypress.co.uk (Jim Nagel) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2018 16:03:07 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients In-Reply-To: <624ee5b0-a288-0708-ac23-465528324bbd@dotcodotukat.co.uk> References: <94a09475-d3e1-def0-1459-6e422f287395@dotcodotukat.co.uk> <7d9830f569bd92f07fa0da8d6a2b2118@wingsandbeaks.org.uk> <624ee5b0-a288-0708-ac23-465528324bbd@dotcodotukat.co.uk> Message-ID: Vince M Hudd via Virtualacorn-list wrote on 4 Jul: > On 04/07/2018 10:39, Jeremy Nicoll - ml VA via Virtualacorn-list wrote: >> On 2018-07-04 09:10, Vince M Hudd via Virtualacorn-list wrote: >>> On 03/07/18 14:19, Jim Nagel via Virtualacorn-list wrote: > [Various snips] >>>> In MPro, one of the options when reading a mailinglist message is to >>>> "reply to group and include copy to sender" (Ctrl-click on the >>>> button).? The result is TO the list and CC the individual. ... >>> What a strange option. What good reason is there to - in effect - send >>> someone two copies of your reply? >> It's a good question, and personally I agree with you(*). The only situation where I have ever used MPro's ctrl-Reply option is where I know the list moderator* sends stuff only once a day or at even longer intervals but the OP needs a reply quickly. (* not this list, of course!) Maybe it'd be better if the email client sent the copy as BCC rather than CC, but that's outside Vince's ctrl. It might in fact be an advantage in that the individual's address would not be broadcast with potential for spambots to see it. -- Jim Nagel www.archivemag.co.uk From ardler at argonet.co.uk Thu Jul 12 10:28:15 2018 From: ardler at argonet.co.uk (Bob Ardler) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2018 10:28:15 +0100 (BST) Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients Message-ID: <49458.91.85.218.30.1531387695.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> Jim Nagel, Vince M Hudd and others wrote: [...] MPro [...] What is MPro? (Those of us foolish enough to gain an Msc in CompSci in 1972 know less about computing than today's average 6-year-old. And what is the technical term for the progressive outofdatery equivalent to built-in obsolescence?) Bob From p.sprangers at sprie.nl Thu Jul 12 11:09:59 2018 From: p.sprangers at sprie.nl (Paul Sprangers) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2018 12:09:59 +0200 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients In-Reply-To: <49458.91.85.218.30.1531387695.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> References: <49458.91.85.218.30.1531387695.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> Message-ID: <9f55d50b-8c51-ea56-eda4-14be0e31aaf0@sprie.nl> > Those of us foolish enough to gain an Msc in CompSci in 1972 know less > about computing than today's average 6-year-old I don't know how foolish a Msc in CompSci in 1972 is, but I think that the computing skills of 6-year-olds is largely overestimated. Yes, they know exactly which buttons need to be pressed to make their favourite game appear, but I wonder if that should be entitled as 'computer skill'. Even most of the *16*-year-olds, who spend more time on their phones (and computers) than me in my lifetime, are completely helpless if something goes wrong. But I digress... Kind regards, Paul Sprangers From vatory at abbeypress.co.uk Thu Jul 12 12:19:57 2018 From: vatory at abbeypress.co.uk (Jim Nagel) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2018 12:19:57 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients In-Reply-To: <49458.91.85.218.30.1531387695.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> References: <49458.91.85.218.30.1531387695.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> Message-ID: <66d26b1657.jim@6.abbeypress.net> Bob Ardler via Virtualacorn-list wrote on 12 Jul: > Jim Nagel, Vince M Hudd and others wrote: >> [...] MPro [...] > What is MPro? Sorry: it's one of my own pet peeves that people write abbreviations at first mention, forgetting that some not-yet-familiar readers might appreciate a spelling-out. MPro is Messenger Pro, the email and news client application sold by R-Comp. I think there's a version for Windows too (someone will correct me if I'm wrong). The older version was called Messenger. The original authors are Mark Sawle and Tom Hughes. The other main news and email client app for RiscOS is Pluto. -- Jim Nagel www.archivemag.co.uk From j.mccartney at blueyonder.co.uk Thu Jul 12 15:55:03 2018 From: j.mccartney at blueyonder.co.uk (John McCartney) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2018 15:55:03 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients In-Reply-To: <66d26b1657.jim@6.abbeypress.net> References: <49458.91.85.218.30.1531387695.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <66d26b1657.jim@6.abbeypress.net> Message-ID: <57167f8409j.mccartney@blueyonder.co.uk> In article <66d26b1657.jim at 6.abbeypress.net>, Jim Nagel via Virtualacorn-list wrote: > Bob Ardler via Virtualacorn-list wrote on 12 Jul: > > Jim Nagel, Vince M Hudd and others wrote: > >> [...] MPro [...] > > What is MPro? > Sorry: it's one of my own pet peeves that people write > abbreviations at first mention, forgetting that some > not-yet-familiar readers might appreciate a spelling-out. This is exactly what is done (in what used to be called) Service Writing (SW). SW is the way written communications are made (or should be made) in the armed forces and civil service. When I was in the RAF, all that one needed to know about SW was contained in a Joint Service Publication (JSP) entitled JSP 101. Things move on and the topic is now known as Defence Writing. Note that, having mentioned it in full, I haven't put its abbreviation in parentheses. This is because I'm not going to mention it again and the abbreviation would be redundant. John -- John McCartney j.mccartney at blueyonder.co.uk From ardler at argonet.co.uk Fri Jul 13 09:57:36 2018 From: ardler at argonet.co.uk (Bob Ardler) Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2018 09:57:36 +0100 (BST) Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients In-Reply-To: <66d26b1657.jim@6.abbeypress.net> References: <49458.91.85.218.30.1531387695.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <66d26b1657.jim@6.abbeypress.net> Message-ID: <62160.91.85.218.30.1531472256.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> Jim Nagel wrote: re: >> What is MPro? > [...] > MPro is Messenger Pro, the email and news client application sold by R-Comp. I think there's a version for Windows too (someone will correct me if I'm wrong). Ah, bell should have rung. > The older version was called Messenger. The original authors are Mark Sawle and Tom Hughes. > The other main news and email client app for RiscOS is Pluto. Plot thickens. !NetFetch and !Messenger sit where Andrew's team put them on the pinboard, but to email we just NetSurf webmail, log in & do it all on Netsurf. (NetFetch pops up on entering RiscOS from Windows, offering stuff which would require study to use.) One misses Pluto's style and versatility, but learning how to use it with webmail seems too much bother. As to multiple recipients, our local environment discussion group with 32ish members put 32ish addressees in Cc, not Bcc. Most of them also quote in full (including each Cc) every previous message on the topic. Could be that this apparent goofitude is caused by people using smart phones on the move being unable to do the fiddly bits. Could the messages Vince spotted have come from phones? -- Bob From j.mccartney at blueyonder.co.uk Fri Jul 13 11:36:42 2018 From: j.mccartney at blueyonder.co.uk (John McCartney) Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2018 11:36:42 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients In-Reply-To: <62160.91.85.218.30.1531472256.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> References: <49458.91.85.218.30.1531387695.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <66d26b1657.jim@6.abbeypress.net> <62160.91.85.218.30.1531472256.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> Message-ID: <5716ebb2d5j.mccartney@blueyonder.co.uk> In article <62160.91.85.218.30.1531472256.squirrel at email.orpheusnet.co.uk>, Bob Ardler via Virtualacorn-list wrote: > Jim Nagel wrote: > re: > >> What is MPro? > > [...] > > MPro is Messenger Pro, the email and news client > > application sold by > R-Comp. I think there's a version for Windows too > (someone will correct me if I'm wrong). > Ah, bell should have rung. > > The older version was called Messenger. The original > > authors are Mark Sawle and Tom Hughes. > > The other main news and email client app for RiscOS is > > Pluto. > Plot thickens. !NetFetch and !Messenger sit where > Andrew's team put them on the pinboard, but to email we > just NetSurf webmail, log in & do it all on Netsurf. That'll be why your e-mails look a mess when viewed (in my case) on Pluto. The threading is broken and quoting is discontinuous. In order to compose this reply, I've had to extensively edit your last email to make it more easily readable. > (NetFetch pops up on entering RiscOS from Windows, > offering stuff which would require study to use.) One > misses Pluto's style and versatility, but learning how to > use it with webmail seems too much bother. > As to multiple recipients, our local environment > discussion group with 32ish members put 32ish addressees > in Cc, not Bcc. Most of them also quote in full > (including each Cc) every previous message on the topic. > Could be that this apparent goofitude is caused by people > using smart phones on the move being unable to do the > fiddly bits. Your use of NetSurf and webmail doesn't seem to be able to cope with the fiddly bits either. It would help somewhat if you separated paragraphs with a double return instead of just indenting the first line. I've had to do that before getting Pluto to reformat so that your last two paragraphs don't end up as one. > Could the messages Vince spotted have come from phones? Mine was created in Pluto on an ARMX6. John -- John McCartney j.mccartney at blueyonder.co.uk From vatory at abbeypress.co.uk Fri Jul 13 13:26:11 2018 From: vatory at abbeypress.co.uk (Jim Nagel) Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2018 13:26:11 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] / how to switch Quoting off? In-Reply-To: <62160.91.85.218.30.1531472256.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> References: <49458.91.85.218.30.1531387695.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <66d26b1657.jim@6.abbeypress.net> <62160.91.85.218.30.1531472256.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> Message-ID: <01b9f51657.jim@6.abbeypress.net> Bob Ardler via Virtualacorn-list wrote on 13 Jul: > ... Most of ... our local environment discussion group with 32ish > members ... quote in full (including each Cc) every previous message > on the topic. Could be that this apparent goofitude is caused by > people using smartphones on the move being unable to do the fiddly > bits. I would think that whatever email software they are using, on smartphone or desktop or wherever, would have something in Settings (or Configure or similar name) where they could switch quoting off. Otherwise, I guess the problem with hoi polloi is just that they are too lazy to use their Delete key before they hit Send. (Pet peeve.) -- Jim Nagel www.archivemag.co.uk From Stuartlists at orpheusinternet.co.uk Fri Jul 13 18:27:38 2018 From: Stuartlists at orpheusinternet.co.uk (lists) Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2018 17:27:38 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients In-Reply-To: <62160.91.85.218.30.1531472256.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> References: <49458.91.85.218.30.1531387695.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <66d26b1657.jim@6.abbeypress.net> <62160.91.85.218.30.1531472256.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> Message-ID: <571711523dStuartlists@orpheusinternet.co.uk> In article <62160.91.85.218.30.1531472256.squirrel at email.orpheusnet.co.uk>, Bob Ardler via Virtualacorn-list wrote: > One misses Pluto's style and versatility, So why aren't you using it instead of trying to use webmail? -- Stuart Winsor Tools With A Mission sending tools across the world http://www.twam.co.uk/ From pnyoung at ormail.co.uk Fri Jul 13 17:47:33 2018 From: pnyoung at ormail.co.uk (Peter Young) Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2018 17:47:33 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients In-Reply-To: <571711523dStuartlists@orpheusinternet.co.uk> References: <49458.91.85.218.30.1531387695.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <66d26b1657.jim@6.abbeypress.net> <62160.91.85.218.30.1531472256.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <571711523dStuartlists@orpheusinternet.co.uk> Message-ID: On 13 Jul 2018 lists via Virtualacorn-list wrote: > In article <62160.91.85.218.30.1531472256.squirrel at email.orpheusnet.co.uk>, > Bob Ardler via Virtualacorn-list > wrote: >> One misses Pluto's style and versatility, > So why aren't you using it instead of trying to use webmail? +1. Webmail is the invention from Hell. Best wishes, Peter. -- Peter Young (zfc Au) and family Prestbury, Cheltenham, Glos. GL52, England http://pnyoung.orpheusweb.co.uk pnyoung at ormail.co.uk From dave at triffid.co.uk Fri Jul 13 19:12:57 2018 From: dave at triffid.co.uk (Dave Symes) Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2018 19:12:57 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients In-Reply-To: References: <49458.91.85.218.30.1531387695.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <66d26b1657.jim@6.abbeypress.net> <62160.91.85.218.30.1531472256.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <571711523dStuartlists@orpheusinternet.co.uk> Message-ID: <5717157835dave@triffid.co.uk> In article , Peter Young via Virtualacorn-list wrote: > On 13 Jul 2018 lists via Virtualacorn-list > wrote: > > In article <62160.91.85.218.30.1531472256.squirrel at email.orpheusnet.co.uk>, > > Bob Ardler via Virtualacorn-list > > wrote: > >> One misses Pluto's style and versatility, > > So why aren't you using it instead of trying to use webmail? > +1. Webmail is the invention from Hell. > Best wishes, > Peter. I can think of a number of other things that are inventions from hell... On balance, while Webmail is crude it has its uses. Dave -- Dave Triffid From ardler at argonet.co.uk Fri Jul 20 15:48:41 2018 From: ardler at argonet.co.uk (Bob Ardler) Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2018 15:48:41 +0100 (BST) Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients Message-ID: <53160.91.85.218.30.1532098121.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> John McCartney wrote: re: >> !NetFetch and !Messenger sit where >> Andrew's team put them on the pinboard, but to email we >> just NetSurf webmail, log in & do it all on Netsurf. > That'll be why your e-mails look a mess when viewed (in my > case) on Pluto. The threading is broken and quoting is > discontinuous. In order to compose this reply, I've had to > extensively edit your last email to make it more easily > readable. Well, same here with many others' emails. (Broken-threading and continuous-quoting are terms beyond my ken.) >> [...] group with 32ish members put 32ish addressees >> in Cc, not Bcc. Most of them also quote in full >> (including each Cc) every previous message on the topic. >> Could be [...] caused by [...] smart phones on the move >> being unable to do the fiddly bits. > Your use of NetSurf and webmail doesn't seem to be able to > cope with the fiddly bits either. It would help somewhat if > you separated paragraphs with a double return instead of > just indenting the first line. I've had to do that before > getting Pluto to reformat so that your last two paragraphs > don't end up as one. OK, indent bad, double return good now added to goodmanners. Yonks ago Paul Vigay said no more Pluto, webmail now, use your browser. Hence the NetSurfing, as the RiscOS FireFox doesn't work here and Webster pages have weird layout. Andrew made NetFetch pop up on RiscOS entry with multiple options needing study & practice, so am sticking with the simple way. Didn't realize it rattles Pluto. Er, typed this days ago & clicked Save Draft instead of Send. Dementia rules. Bob From styleguide at avisoft.f9.co.uk Fri Jul 20 17:14:45 2018 From: styleguide at avisoft.f9.co.uk (Martin) Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2018 17:14:45 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients In-Reply-To: <53160.91.85.218.30.1532098121.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> References: <53160.91.85.218.30.1532098121.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> Message-ID: <571aa57fd4styleguide@avisoft.f9.co.uk> On 20 Jul in article <53160.91.85.218.30.1532098121.squirrel at email.orpheusnet.co.uk>, Bob Ardler via Virtualacorn-list wrote: > John McCartney wrote: > re: > >> !NetFetch and !Messenger sit where > >> Andrew's team put them on the pinboard, but to email we > >> just NetSurf webmail, log in & do it all on Netsurf. > > That'll be why your e-mails look a mess when viewed (in my > > case) on Pluto. The threading is broken and quoting is > > discontinuous. In order to compose this reply, I've had to > > extensively edit your last email to make it more easily > > readable. > Well, same here with many others' emails. (Broken-threading > and continuous-quoting are terms beyond my ken.) Broken Threads are when messages which are replies do not contain in their header lines (not normally seen) a 'References:' header containing a reference to the original message. This means that mail readers which can display message 'threads' properly cannot do so, and the thread is 'broken'. Then the only way to group messages together is by the subject. Strangely, of your 3 replies in this thread, one was referenced correctly, the other two were not. Continuous Quoting probably refers to the nasty habit of some mail programs to send chunks of text which are way way over the standard 70 or so line length limit. When quoted, there is just one quote indicator (eg '>') at the start of many lines of displayed text, instead of at the start of every displayed line. > > Your use of NetSurf and webmail doesn't seem to be able to > > cope with the fiddly bits either. It would help somewhat if > > you separated paragraphs with a double return instead of > > just indenting the first line. I've had to do that before > > getting Pluto to reformat so that your last two paragraphs > > don't end up as one. > OK, indent bad, double return good now added to goodmanners. > Yonks ago Paul Vigay said no more Pluto, webmail now, use > your browser. Hence the NetSurfing, as the RiscOS FireFox > doesn't work here and Webster pages have weird layout. > Andrew made NetFetch pop up on RiscOS entry with multiple > options needing study & practice, so am sticking with the > simple way. Didn't realize it rattles Pluto. Pluto will happily display most non-standard messages without being rattled, but they can be more difficult to read and reply to than standard ones. In an earlier post, you wrote: > One misses Pluto's style and versatility, but learning how to use > it with webmail seems too much bother. If you miss Pluto, then it can easily be used on any RISC OS machine. You do not use it 'with webmail'. The fetching and sending of emails for Pluto over the Internet is handled by a Transport Application as always - eg AntiSpam, POPstar, Hermes (probably in your NetFetch). For further details of Pluto, see www.avisoft.f9.co.uk/Pluto for infomation and a contact email address. IMHO when away from your RISC OS machine but with access to a browser, Webmail has its uses, but I personally would not like to use it all the time. Martin -- Martin Avison using a British Iyonix running RISC OS 5 and the Pluto mail and newsreader From ardler at argonet.co.uk Sun Jul 22 11:04:01 2018 From: ardler at argonet.co.uk (Bob Ardler) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2018 11:04:01 +0100 (BST) Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients threadcut In-Reply-To: <571aa57fd4styleguide@avisoft.f9.co.uk> References: <53160.91.85.218.30.1532098121.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <571aa57fd4styleguide@avisoft.f9.co.uk> Message-ID: <50053.91.85.218.30.1532253841.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> Martin Avison wrote: Re: >> [...] Broken-threading & continuous-quoting are beyond my ken. > Broken Threads are when messages which are replies do not contain in > their header lines (not normally seen) a 'References:' header > containing a reference to the original message. This means that mail > readers which can display message 'threads' properly cannot do so, > and the thread is 'broken'. Then the only way to group messages > together is by the subject. Strangely, of your 3 replies in this > thread, one was referenced correctly, the other two were not. > > Continuous Quoting probably refers to the nasty habit of some mail > programs to send chunks of text which are way way over the standard > 70 or so line length limit. When quoted, there is just one quote > indicator (eg '>') at the start of many lines of displayed text, > instead of at the start of every displayed line. > Pluto will happily display most non-standard messages without being > rattled, but they can be more difficult to read and reply to than > standard ones. > > In an earlier post, you wrote: >> One misses Pluto's style and versatility, but learning how to use >> it with webmail seems too much bother. > > If you miss Pluto, then it can easily be used on any RISC OS machine. > You do not use it 'with webmail'. > The fetching and sending of emails for Pluto over the Internet is > handled by a Transport Application as always - eg AntiSpam, POPstar, > Hermes (probably in your NetFetch). > > For further details of Pluto, see www.avisoft.f9.co.uk/Pluto for > infomation and a contact email address. > > IMHO when away from your RISC OS machine but with access to a > browser, Webmail has its uses, but I personally would not like to use > it all the time. Thanks, Martin, for several clarifications. Can now see, with apologies, that my questions have cut Vince M Hudd's thread with digression. Have googled & learnt you've taken over Pluto & his e-creation from Jonathan Duddington -- a vital job which gave huge benefit to a brave partially-sighted woman in Greenwich. Sadly, the message from Paul Vigay (or successor?) and argonet was quite clear: webmail from now on. In any case, filing by hand & sorting by sender (or e-list and subject) has become routine. So it's a sad goodbye to splendid Pluto & Jonathan (couldn't find what's become of him on Google). Good luck with your splendid work, Bob From atdotcodotuk at dotcodotukat.co.uk Sun Jul 22 11:22:45 2018 From: atdotcodotuk at dotcodotukat.co.uk (Vince M Hudd) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2018 11:22:45 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients threadcut In-Reply-To: <50053.91.85.218.30.1532253841.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> References: <53160.91.85.218.30.1532098121.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <571aa57fd4styleguide@avisoft.f9.co.uk> <50053.91.85.218.30.1532253841.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> Message-ID: <7e4cd432-da5c-4acb-30e4-6b78a5959d5a@dotcodotukat.co.uk> On 22/07/18 11:04, Bob Ardler via Virtualacorn-list wrote: > Sadly, the message from Paul Vigay (or successor?) and argonet was > quite clear: webmail from now on. In all honesty, I'd be absolutely amazed if Paul said anything of the sort - and I can't see Richard Brown (who now runs Orpheus) suggesting something like that, either. Orpheus has always included mailboxes accessed in the normal way as part of the service. I strongly suspect that you've misunderstood something that one of them has said. -- Vince M Hudd - Soft Rock Software - www.softrock.co.uk RISCOSitory - www.riscository.com From druck at druck.org.uk Sun Jul 22 12:09:51 2018 From: druck at druck.org.uk (David J. Ruck) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2018 12:09:51 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients threadcut In-Reply-To: <50053.91.85.218.30.1532253841.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> References: <53160.91.85.218.30.1532098121.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <571aa57fd4styleguide@avisoft.f9.co.uk> <50053.91.85.218.30.1532253841.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> Message-ID: <27b2c074-49f1-7b8f-1d4b-4d1cc77cda5d@druck.org.uk> On 22/07/2018 11:04, Bob Ardler via Virtualacorn-list wrote: > Sadly, the message from Paul > Vigay (or successor?) and argonet was quite clear: webmail from now > on. In any case, filing by hand & sorting by sender (or e-list and > subject) has become routine. So it's a sad goodbye to splendid Pluto > & Jonathan (couldn't find what's become of him on Google). Well there are other ISPs which still provide email, but if you are determined to stay with Orpheus, there are other options. Some webmail providers also provide POP and IMAP access, such as gmail. There are also a number of free and subscription email services which you can use from any ISP. ---druck -- Email: druck at druck.org.uk Phone: +44-(0)7974 108301 From Stuartlists at orpheusinternet.co.uk Sun Jul 22 21:34:28 2018 From: Stuartlists at orpheusinternet.co.uk (lists) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2018 21:34:28 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients threadcut In-Reply-To: <27b2c074-49f1-7b8f-1d4b-4d1cc77cda5d@druck.org.uk> References: <53160.91.85.218.30.1532098121.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <571aa57fd4styleguide@avisoft.f9.co.uk> <50053.91.85.218.30.1532253841.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <27b2c074-49f1-7b8f-1d4b-4d1cc77cda5d@druck.org.uk> Message-ID: <571bc4f2e2Stuartlists@orpheusinternet.co.uk> In article <27b2c074-49f1-7b8f-1d4b-4d1cc77cda5d at druck.org.uk>, David J. Ruck via Virtualacorn-list wrote: > Well there are other ISPs which still provide email, but if you are > determined to stay with Orpheus, Orpheus do still provide email and as far as I am aware there is no plan to drop it. Of three aliases I have, one is an Orpheus domain account, one is an Argonet domain account and the third a zfc domain account. I think I am probably one of only a couple of people with the latter and I have paid the domain renewal fees for the last couple of times (a trifilling amount really) One only has to check out http://www.orpheusinternet.co.uk/email/ Orpheus also still provide full, unrestricted, newsgroup access via Gignews > Some webmail providers also provide POP and IMAP access, such as gmail. GMAIL!!! for goodness sake! -- Stuart Winsor Tools With A Mission sending tools across the world http://www.twam.co.uk/ From Stuartlists at orpheusinternet.co.uk Sun Jul 22 21:16:08 2018 From: Stuartlists at orpheusinternet.co.uk (lists) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2018 21:16:08 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients threadcut In-Reply-To: <7e4cd432-da5c-4acb-30e4-6b78a5959d5a@dotcodotukat.co.uk> References: <53160.91.85.218.30.1532098121.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <571aa57fd4styleguide@avisoft.f9.co.uk> <50053.91.85.218.30.1532253841.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <7e4cd432-da5c-4acb-30e4-6b78a5959d5a@dotcodotukat.co.uk> Message-ID: <571bc34567Stuartlists@orpheusinternet.co.uk> In article <7e4cd432-da5c-4acb-30e4-6b78a5959d5a at dotcodotukat.co.uk>, Vince M Hudd via Virtualacorn-list wrote: > On 22/07/18 11:04, Bob Ardler via Virtualacorn-list wrote: > > Sadly, the message from Paul Vigay (or successor?) and argonet was > > quite clear: webmail from now on. > In all honesty, I'd be absolutely amazed if Paul said anything of the > sort - So would I! > and I can't see Richard Brown (who now runs Orpheus) suggesting > something like that, either. Orpheus has always included mailboxes > accessed in the normal way as part of the service. When I moved back from Pipex to Orpheus, (I'd been with Argonet right up to latter days, when it was overrun with spam and jumped ship) Paul seemed quite happy to provide three separate user IDs on one account at no extra cost, so that different members of the family could fetch their mail independently. He implied that email accounts were "no big deal" and quite trivial to set up and manage. > I strongly suspect that you've misunderstood something that one of them > has said. I would second that. -- Stuart Winsor Tools With A Mission sending tools across the world http://www.twam.co.uk/ From Stuartlists at orpheusinternet.co.uk Sun Jul 22 21:39:59 2018 From: Stuartlists at orpheusinternet.co.uk (lists) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2018 21:39:59 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients In-Reply-To: <571aa57fd4styleguide@avisoft.f9.co.uk> References: <53160.91.85.218.30.1532098121.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <571aa57fd4styleguide@avisoft.f9.co.uk> Message-ID: <571bc5745cStuartlists@orpheusinternet.co.uk> In article <571aa57fd4styleguide at avisoft.f9.co.uk>, Martin via Virtualacorn-list wrote: > IMHO when away from your RISC OS machine but with access to a > browser, Webmail has its uses, but I personally would not like to use > it all the time. My opinion too. It's useful when I am away on holiday - !NetSurf on VA on a little Dell Lattitude 2110 but I only use it to check personal emails, mailing lists can wait till I get back home. -- Stuart Winsor Tools With A Mission sending tools across the world http://www.twam.co.uk/ From pnyoung at ormail.co.uk Sun Jul 22 21:48:57 2018 From: pnyoung at ormail.co.uk (Peter Young) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2018 21:48:57 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients In-Reply-To: <571bc5745cStuartlists@orpheusinternet.co.uk> References: <53160.91.85.218.30.1532098121.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <571aa57fd4styleguide@avisoft.f9.co.uk> <571bc5745cStuartlists@orpheusinternet.co.uk> Message-ID: <7046c61b57.pnyoung@pnyoung.ormail.co.uk> On 22 Jul 2018 lists via Virtualacorn-list wrote: > In article <571aa57fd4styleguide at avisoft.f9.co.uk>, > Martin via Virtualacorn-list > wrote: >> IMHO when away from your RISC OS machine but with access to a >> browser, Webmail has its uses, but I personally would not like to use >> it all the time. > My opinion too. It's useful when I am away on holiday - !NetSurf on VA on > a little Dell Lattitude 2110 but I only use it to check personal emails, > mailing lists can wait till I get back home. I have used Orpheus webmail when away, but it totally fouls up any formatting in a reply. What I do now is to use NetFetch and Messenger Pro while I'm away?on VRPC, with "delete all fetched mails" turned off, and bcc any replies I make to my own address. When I'm back I can save these messages as .eml files and import them into my MPro on this VRPC using ShareFS. Problem solved, go thou and do likewise! Best wishes, Peter. -- Peter Young (zfc Au) and family Prestbury, Cheltenham, Glos. GL52, England http://pnyoung.orpheusweb.co.uk pnyoung at ormail.co.uk From Stuartlists at orpheusinternet.co.uk Sun Jul 22 22:15:25 2018 From: Stuartlists at orpheusinternet.co.uk (lists) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2018 22:15:25 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients In-Reply-To: <7046c61b57.pnyoung@pnyoung.ormail.co.uk> References: <53160.91.85.218.30.1532098121.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <571aa57fd4styleguide@avisoft.f9.co.uk> <571bc5745cStuartlists@orpheusinternet.co.uk> <7046c61b57.pnyoung@pnyoung.ormail.co.uk> Message-ID: <571bc8b2a2Stuartlists@orpheusinternet.co.uk> In article <7046c61b57.pnyoung at pnyoung.ormail.co.uk>, Peter Young via Virtualacorn-list wrote: > I have used Orpheus webmail when away, but it totally fouls up any > formatting in a reply. What I do now is to use NetFetch and Messenger > Pro while I'm away#on VRPC, with "delete all fetched mails" turned off, > and bcc any replies I make to my own address. When I'm back I can save > these messages as .eml files and import them into my MPro on this VRPC > using ShareFS. Problem solved, go thou and do likewise! Yes. Whilst I check my emails I don't reply unless it is urgent that I do so. They are all then dealt with when I get back home, to !POPstar and !Pluto. -- Stuart Winsor Tools With A Mission sending tools across the world http://www.twam.co.uk/ From cvjazz at waitrose.com Sun Jul 22 23:34:29 2018 From: cvjazz at waitrose.com (Chris Newman) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2018 23:34:29 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients threadcut In-Reply-To: <7e4cd432-da5c-4acb-30e4-6b78a5959d5a@dotcodotukat.co.uk> References: <53160.91.85.218.30.1532098121.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <571aa57fd4styleguide@avisoft.f9.co.uk> <50053.91.85.218.30.1532253841.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <7e4cd432-da5c-4acb-30e4-6b78a5959d5a@dotcodotukat.co.uk> Message-ID: <571bcfeff9cvjazz@waitrose.com> In article <7e4cd432-da5c-4acb-30e4-6b78a5959d5a at dotcodotukat.co.uk>, Vince M Hudd via Virtualacorn-list wrote: > On 22/07/18 11:04, Bob Ardler via Virtualacorn-list wrote: > > Sadly, the message from Paul Vigay (or successor?) and argonet was > > quite clear: webmail from now on. > In all honesty, I'd be absolutely amazed if Paul said anything of the > sort - and I can't see Richard Brown (who now runs Orpheus) suggesting > something like that, either. Orpheus has always included mailboxes > accessed in the normal way as part of the service. > I strongly suspect that you've misunderstood something that one of them > has said. I concur. Knowing Paul Vigay well here in Portsmouth he was fanatical about cyber safety & always preferred downloading his mail to his machine(s) rather than using the web. I use Pluto on a RiscPC at home & Virtual Acorn when I'm away & that includes being on the other side of the world. When in foreign parts I log into webmail once so they know where I genuinely am & stop pestering me about safety then it's back to Pluto & Netfetch. I only check my accounts on the web now & again to check they haven't put something I really needed in the junk folder. I use PoP3 & set Netfetch to delete messages from the server after downloading. If you want a belt & braces approach you can leave them on the web to be reviewed later or downloaded to another device. What's not to like. -- Chris From ardler at argonet.co.uk Mon Jul 23 12:09:26 2018 From: ardler at argonet.co.uk (Bob Ardler) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2018 12:09:26 +0100 (BST) Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients threadcut Message-ID: <49366.91.85.218.30.1532344166.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> Clarification: Vince M Hudd wrote, re my claim that Paul or Richard or others said webmail from now on: > In all honesty, I'd be absolutely amazed if Paul said anything of the > sort - and I can't see Richard Brown (who now runs Orpheus) suggesting > something like that, either. Orpheus has always included mailboxes > accessed in the normal way as part of the service. > I strongly suspect that you've misunderstood something that one of > them has said. Dementiated memory prevents correct dates. Roughly: by late 80s was using a now-extinct browser &c on the Archimedes. Pluto arrived and helped greatly. Switch to 1st Iyonix was ok. On updated Iyonix email failed, Castle inaccessible by phone or snailmail. Phoned Argonet, and their solution was something unknown to me -- webmail, which they explained in detail. Am now used to webmail and shall stick to it. The intelligent notes from VMH, Druck, SW, PY & CN indicate knowledge & skill beyond this declining brain -- especially where RTFM is needed. (Those who know enough to write manuals seldom know what the dontknows need to know.) So it's webmail here, but long may Jonathan's and Martin's work flourish. (What did become of Jonathan?) Bob -- Islington North From Stuartlists at orpheusinternet.co.uk Mon Jul 23 14:29:40 2018 From: Stuartlists at orpheusinternet.co.uk (lists) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2018 14:29:40 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients threadcut In-Reply-To: <49366.91.85.218.30.1532344166.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> References: <49366.91.85.218.30.1532344166.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> Message-ID: <571c21e48aStuartlists@orpheusinternet.co.uk> In article <49366.91.85.218.30.1532344166.squirrel at email.orpheusnet.co.uk>, Bob Ardler via Virtualacorn-list wrote: > Am now used to webmail and shall stick to it. The intelligent notes > from VMH, Druck, SW, PY & CN indicate knowledge & skill beyond this > declining brain -- especially where RTFM is needed. (Those who know > enough to write manuals seldom know what the dontknows need to know.) > So it's webmail here, but long may Jonathan's and Martin's work > flourish. (What did become of Jonathan?) Jonathan continued with his principle interest, which was in producing speech on the computer, for some time after passing !Pluto on for further development to Martin. http://espeak.sourceforge.net/ The documentation for !Pluto is, with all due respect to Jonathan, a lttle rudimentary, consisting, as it does, of a number of text files. However Brian Bailey, a user, produced a much better, "proper" manual in !Ovation format and I have a draft copy here. -- Stuart Winsor Tools With A Mission sending tools across the world http://www.twam.co.uk/ From styleguide at avisoft.f9.co.uk Mon Jul 23 15:04:49 2018 From: styleguide at avisoft.f9.co.uk (Martin) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2018 15:04:49 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients threadcut In-Reply-To: <571c21e48aStuartlists@orpheusinternet.co.uk> References: <49366.91.85.218.30.1532344166.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <571c21e48aStuartlists@orpheusinternet.co.uk> Message-ID: <571c251c93styleguide@avisoft.f9.co.uk> On 23 Jul in article <571c21e48aStuartlists at orpheusinternet.co.uk>, lists via Virtualacorn-list wrote: > The documentation for !Pluto is, with all due respect to Jonathan, > a lttle rudimentary, consisting, as it does, of a number of text > files. The original documentation by Jonathan was indeed a number of text files. However, many years ago I took those and added vast amounts of information culled from internet postings and created a StrongHelp manual. Since I have had access to the Pluto sources it has had further updates, and from v3.06 it has been included with Pluto and is on the iconbar menu. The original text documents are no longer distributed. I know StrongHelp is not everyone's favourite, but it is small, fast, and enables one or many pages to be displayed, and instant searches to be done. It is the only complete and up-to-date documentation that I am aware of, and has a full alphabetic Index and a structured Contents. If I had time, I would complete my StrongHelp conversion facility: Anyone got any spare? I would also add that the Pluto developments I have done have only been possible because of the changes that Robert Sprowson has done, and the help in understanding C that he has given me. Martin -- Martin Avison using a British Iyonix running RISC OS 5 and the Pluto mail and newsreader From atdotcodotuk at dotcodotukat.co.uk Mon Jul 23 15:43:50 2018 From: atdotcodotuk at dotcodotukat.co.uk (Vince M Hudd) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2018 15:43:50 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients threadcut In-Reply-To: <571c251c93styleguide@avisoft.f9.co.uk> References: <49366.91.85.218.30.1532344166.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <571c21e48aStuartlists@orpheusinternet.co.uk> <571c251c93styleguide@avisoft.f9.co.uk> Message-ID: <790d3fdf-1314-89a3-84dd-d157262603f7@dotcodotukat.co.uk> On 23/07/2018 15:04, Martin via Virtualacorn-list wrote: [Pluto's documentation] This really belongs on the Pluto list - so I'll post it here and then re-post it there. I suggest anyone with any interest in Pluto subscribes and continues this discussion there: plutousers at yahoogroups.com (yuck!) > I know StrongHelp is not everyone's favourite, but it is small, fast, > and enables one or many pages to be displayed, and instant searches > to be done. It is the only complete and up-to-date documentation that > I am aware of, and has a full alphabetic Index and a structured > Contents. If I had time, I would complete my StrongHelp conversion > facility: Anyone got any spare? I'm not entirely familiar with the StrongHelp file format[1], but isn't it just a sort of mark up? If so, I wonder if something like WebChange can be used to convert individual pages to something like XML? I suggest XML because there does exist one and a half tools for converting from XML to other formats. One is Steve Fryatt's, and (IIRC) can convert from XML to various formats - including StrongHelp. The other is a half (well, tenth) written one of my own (which may or may not become part of WebChange, or a separate thing in its own right) which I aim to make more customisable, so it can theoretically go from XML to anything at all that it's possible to write a config/rules file for. (I'm holding off writing it fully until the WebChange manual is written - which I'm slowly working on in XML. Because of that time stuff you mentioned.) [1] I'm a StrongHelp loather, so I never use it for my own documentation[2], and only ever look at SH documentation for other stuff as a last resort [2] Shut up Ron, if you're reading this list. ;) -- Vince M Hudd Soft Rock Software - www.softrock.co.uk RISCOSitory - www.riscository.com From j.mccartney at blueyonder.co.uk Mon Jul 23 17:07:00 2018 From: j.mccartney at blueyonder.co.uk (John McCartney) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2018 17:07:00 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients In-Reply-To: <53160.91.85.218.30.1532098121.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> References: <53160.91.85.218.30.1532098121.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> Message-ID: <571c304c70j.mccartney@blueyonder.co.uk> In article <53160.91.85.218.30.1532098121.squirrel at email.orpheusnet.co.uk>, Bob Ardler via Virtualacorn-list wrote: > John McCartney wrote: re: > >> !NetFetch and !Messenger sit where Andrew's team put > >> them on the pinboard, but to email we just NetSurf > >> webmail, log in & do it all on Netsurf. > > That'll be why your e-mails look a mess when viewed (in > > my case) on Pluto. The threading is broken and quoting > > is discontinuous. In order to compose this reply, I've > > had to extensively edit your last email to make it more > > easily readable. > Well, same here with many others' emails. > (Broken-threading and continuous-quoting are terms beyond > my ken.) Ok. If this list accepts attachments, I'll take a snapshot of what your e-mail looks like in Pluto so that you can see the problems. Does the list accept attachments? > >> [...] group with 32ish members put 32ish addressees in > >> Cc, not Bcc. Most of them also quote in full > >> (including each Cc) every previous message on the > >> topic. Could be [...] caused by [...] smart phones on > >> the move being unable to do the fiddly bits. > > Your use of NetSurf and webmail doesn't seem to be able > > to cope with the fiddly bits either. It would help > > somewhat if you separated paragraphs with a double > > return instead of just indenting the first line. I've > > had to do that before getting Pluto to reformat so that > > your last two paragraphs don't end up as one. > OK, indent bad, double return good now added to > goodmanners. Splendid! Old dogs, new tricks eh, what? > Yonks ago Paul Vigay said no more Pluto, webmail now, use > your browser. Despite his many good points, Paul was (in my opinion) quite wrong in this matter. I only use web-mail in extremis. > Hence the NetSurfing, as the RiscOS FireFox doesn't work > here and Webster pages have weird layout. Andrew made > NetFetch pop up on RiscOS entry with multiple options > needing study & practice, so am sticking with the simple > way. Didn't realize it rattles Pluto. > Er, typed this days ago & clicked Save Draft instead of > Send. Dementia rules. I would have answered straight away but my Virgin Media Hub suffered a terminal decline last Tuesday and, due to lack of communication by VM, has only just been replaced this afternoon. John -- John McCartney j.mccartney at blueyonder.co.uk From atdotcodotuk at dotcodotukat.co.uk Mon Jul 23 19:25:19 2018 From: atdotcodotuk at dotcodotukat.co.uk (Vince M Hudd) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2018 19:25:19 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients In-Reply-To: <571c304c70j.mccartney@blueyonder.co.uk> References: <53160.91.85.218.30.1532098121.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <571c304c70j.mccartney@blueyonder.co.uk> Message-ID: <63547f05-d6dc-1964-4985-eb3413348596@dotcodotukat.co.uk> On 23/07/18 17:07, John McCartney via Virtualacorn-list wrote: > In article > <53160.91.85.218.30.1532098121.squirrel at email.orpheusnet.co.uk>, > Bob Ardler via Virtualacorn-list [...] >> Well, same here with many others' emails. >> (Broken-threading and continuous-quoting are terms beyond >> my ken.) > Ok. If this list accepts attachments, I'll take a snapshot > of what your e-mail looks like in Pluto so that you can > see the problems. > Does the list accept attachments? I can't remember the exact settings I've given it, but the answer should be no. And if I don't have it set correctly, and attachments can be posted, the sender will end up on my naughty list. So they'll be subject to a good telling off, and put on moderation - with the latter meaning their messages are likely to be delayed until I notice and approve them. i.e. don't post attachments. Better to bung an image up on some webspace somewhere and just post the link to it. There's also an upper size limit on messages - probably around 10kB. -- Vince M Hudd - Soft Rock Software - www.softrock.co.uk RISCOSitory - www.riscository.com From j.mccartney at blueyonder.co.uk Tue Jul 24 12:34:29 2018 From: j.mccartney at blueyonder.co.uk (John McCartney) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2018 12:34:29 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients In-Reply-To: <63547f05-d6dc-1964-4985-eb3413348596@dotcodotukat.co.uk> References: <53160.91.85.218.30.1532098121.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <571c304c70j.mccartney@blueyonder.co.uk> <63547f05-d6dc-1964-4985-eb3413348596@dotcodotukat.co.uk> Message-ID: <571c9b2f1dj.mccartney@blueyonder.co.uk> In article <63547f05-d6dc-1964-4985-eb3413348596 at dotcodotukat.co.uk>, Vince M Hudd via Virtualacorn-list wrote: > > Does the list accept attachments? > I can't remember the exact settings I've given it, but > the answer should be no. Ok. I can live with that. > And if I don't have it set correctly, and attachments can > be posted, the sender will end up on my naughty list. Oh, nooooo! The very thought of being on anyone's naughty list fills me with dread... :-) > So they'll be subject to a good telling off, and put on > moderation - with the latter meaning their messages are > likely to be delayed until I notice and approve them. > i.e. don't post attachments. Better to bung an image up > on some webspace somewhere and just post the link to it. I've just picked up a personal e-mail from Bob but am preoccupied with landscapers who have started today. I'll put images on Dropbox later today. John -- John McCartney j.mccartney at blueyonder.co.uk From dave at triffid.co.uk Tue Jul 24 19:53:30 2018 From: dave at triffid.co.uk (Dave Symes) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2018 19:53:30 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Shutdown problem VRPC and Windows Message-ID: <571cc36083dave@triffid.co.uk> I'm wondering if anyone else here has encountered this problem. Fay's computer is running Win 7 Pro and VRPC-Adjust SA and for the most part no particular problems. However occasionally on shutting down VRPC using either the Switcher Menu "Shutdown" or Ctrl+Shift+F12 VRPC shuts down, then the monitor screen goes black and that's it, as it seems to be frozen in that state. No mouse pointer, no keyboard action from a three fingered salute... Nada. Press and hold the front power switch on the computer to force a power off is the only exit from this freeze state. Worth noting, the W7 PC itself never has any trouble booting up or legit closing down, the above noted only happens occasionally when exiting VRPC. Any thoughts please. Thanks Dave -- Dave Triffid From bbailey at argonet.co.uk Wed Jul 25 10:29:42 2018 From: bbailey at argonet.co.uk (Brian) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2018 10:29:42 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Shutdown problem VRPC and Windows In-Reply-To: <571cc36083dave@triffid.co.uk> References: <571cc36083dave@triffid.co.uk> Message-ID: <571d139894bbailey@argonet.co.uk> In article <571cc36083dave at triffid.co.uk>, Dave Symes via Virtualacorn-list wrote: > I'm wondering if anyone else here has encountered this problem. > Fay's computer is running Win 7 Pro and VRPC-Adjust SA and for the most > part no particular problems. However occasionally on shutting down VRPC > using either the Switcher Menu "Shutdown" or Ctrl+Shift+F12 VRPC shuts > down, then the monitor screen goes black and that's it, as it seems to > be frozen in that state. > No mouse pointer, no keyboard action from a three fingered salute... > Nada. > Press and hold the front power switch on the computer to force a power > off is the only exit from this freeze state. > Worth noting, the W7 PC itself never has any trouble booting up or legit > closing down, the above noted only happens occasionally when exiting > VRPC. > Any thoughts please. Not sure that this is the slightest bit of help, Dave, but I have noticed some variability in the time 'lag' between changing from VRPC screen to Win 7 screen on shutdown. It certainly isn't instantaneous. Conversely, on VRPC startup from Win 7 I have had a 'seized' black screen, once or twice I believe, that I reported some time back. Just had to get rough with a reset boot from the power switch. Graphics card/memory problem perhaps? Dunno? Just a wild guess! Best wishes Brian From j.mccartney at blueyonder.co.uk Wed Jul 25 11:10:02 2018 From: j.mccartney at blueyonder.co.uk (John McCartney) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2018 10:10:02 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients In-Reply-To: <571c9b2f1dj.mccartney@blueyonder.co.uk> References: <53160.91.85.218.30.1532098121.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <571c304c70j.mccartney@blueyonder.co.uk> <63547f05-d6dc-1964-4985-eb3413348596@dotcodotukat.co.uk> <571c9b2f1dj.mccartney@blueyonder.co.uk> Message-ID: <571d1749f5j.mccartney@blueyonder.co.uk> In article <571c9b2f1dj.mccartney at blueyonder.co.uk>, John McCartney via Virtualacorn-list wrote: > I've just picked up a personal e-mail from Bob but am > preoccupied with landscapers who have started today. I'll > put images on Dropbox later today. Here's the link: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/dmh2vk6l1u77jdt/AADZGt_82hll1XDtpXzha-Y3a?dl=0 I'm assuming that everyone on this list can access Dropbox from Windows or a Mac. If you're reading this in RISC OS, change the final 0 (zero) to a 1 (one) so that it downloads in NetSurf as a ZIP file. For Bob's benefit, the red boxes in BrokenQuote show where Pluto loses the threading level colour after the first line of the paragraph. The black arrows indicate the presence of a single return instead of a double one. In BrokenThread, the arrows show where your posts appear without being linked to the one(s) you're replying to. From the headers in your posts, it seems that you've just copied and pasted the bits you want to refer to because there isn't a line starting with "In-Reply-To:" Even if you *are* using web mail, there is a button to generate a proper reply, at least there is in the few systems I've seen. I hope this clarifies things for you, Bob. John -- John McCartney j.mccartney at blueyonder.co.uk From ardler at argonet.co.uk Wed Jul 25 16:49:05 2018 From: ardler at argonet.co.uk (Bob Ardler) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2018 16:49:05 +0100 (BST) Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients Message-ID: <50064.91.85.218.30.1532533745.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> 3rd shot, as "Reply all" was rejected for "too many recipients": > John McCartney wrote: > >> I've just picked up a personal e-mail from Bob but am >> preoccupied with landscapers who have started today. I'll >> put images on Dropbox later today. > > Here's the link: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/dmh2vk6l1u77jdt/AADZGt_82hll1XDtpXzha-Y3a?dl=0 > > I'm assuming that everyone on this list can access Dropbox > from Windows or a Mac. If you're reading this in RISC OS, > change the final 0 (zero) to a 1 (one) so that it downloads > in NetSurf as a ZIP file. Couldn't see how to change 0 to 1 without a self-email so did that. > For Bob's benefit, the red boxes in BrokenQuote show where > Pluto loses the threading level colour after the first line > of the paragraph. The black arrows indicate the presence of > a single return instead of a double one. Caused by differences in line-length or the CR/LF thing? Loss of all but the first >s ocasionally happens here. My 5space inset newpara was to replace tabs and reduce scrolling. Didn't know it was a sin, shall incur blackarrow no more. > In BrokenThread, the arrows show where your posts appear > without being linked to the one(s) you're replying to. From > the headers in your posts, it seems that you've just copied > and pasted the bits you want to refer to because there > isn't a line starting with "In-Reply-To:" This may be a daft misunderstanding: one email in the thread was From: sender at ownadr, not senderviaVAlist, so just for this thread I used Compose instead of Reply, thinking that Subject:?Re: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients would continue the thread -- forgetting that Pluto etc handle threading by electronic tag. > Even if you *are* using web mail, there is a button to > generate a proper reply, at least there is in the few > systems I've seen. Yes, back to the Reply button used on all other threads. No: seems the "Reply all" button's needed here. > I hope this clarifies things for you, Bob. Everything except what causes quote-mechanisms to clash. Thanks for your trouble. Hope landscaping flourishes. Bob From pnyoung at ormail.co.uk Wed Jul 25 19:08:54 2018 From: pnyoung at ormail.co.uk (Peter Young) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2018 19:08:54 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients In-Reply-To: <50064.91.85.218.30.1532533745.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> References: <50064.91.85.218.30.1532533745.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> Message-ID: <4f21431d57.pnyoung@pnyoung.ormail.co.uk> On 25 Jul 2018 Bob Ardler via Virtualacorn-list wrote: > 3rd shot, as "Reply all" was rejected for > "too many recipients": >> John McCartney wrote: >> >>> I've just picked up a personal e-mail from Bob but am >>> preoccupied with landscapers who have started today. I'll >>> put images on Dropbox later today. >> >> Here's the link: > https://www.dropbox.com/sh/dmh2vk6l1u77jdt/AADZGt_82hll1XDtpXzha-Y3a?dl=0 >> >> I'm assuming that everyone on this list can access Dropbox >> from Windows or a Mac. If you're reading this in RISC OS, >> change the final 0 (zero) to a 1 (one) so that it downloads >> in NetSurf as a ZIP file. > Couldn't see how to change 0 to 1 without a self-email so > did that. Save the message into StrongED (or maybe Zap), change the "0" into "1" and double-click the line. Bob's your uncle. Best wishes, Peter. -- Peter Young (zfc Au) and family Prestbury, Cheltenham, Glos. GL52, England http://pnyoung.orpheusweb.co.uk pnyoung at ormail.co.uk From atdotcodotuk at dotcodotukat.co.uk Wed Jul 25 21:21:36 2018 From: atdotcodotuk at dotcodotukat.co.uk (Vince M Hudd) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2018 21:21:36 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients In-Reply-To: <50064.91.85.218.30.1532533745.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> References: <50064.91.85.218.30.1532533745.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> Message-ID: <422246c8-84cb-9392-05a9-2f20d6196b87@dotcodotukat.co.uk> On 25/07/18 16:49, Bob Ardler via Virtualacorn-list wrote: > 3rd shot, as "Reply all" was rejected for "too many recipients": It wasn't rejected, it was held by the list server for my attention/approval - you've pre-empted that by reposting separately, though. This brings the thread full circle - look at the subject line and my original post: http://riscository.co.uk/pipermail/virtualacorn-list_riscository.co.uk/2018-July/002696.html So that's ironic. 8) -- Vince M Hudd - Soft Rock Software - www.softrock.co.uk RISCOSitory - www.riscository.com From ardler at argonet.co.uk Thu Jul 26 11:47:23 2018 From: ardler at argonet.co.uk (Bob Ardler) Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2018 11:47:23 +0100 (BST) Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients Message-ID: <49511.91.85.218.30.1532602043.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> Peter Young wrote: re: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/dmh2vk6l1u77jdt/AADZGt_82hll1XDtpXzha-Y3a?dl=0 >>> If you're reading this in RISC OS, >>> change the final 0 (zero) to a 1 (one) so that it downloads >>> in NetSurf as a ZIP file. > >> Couldn't see how to change 0 to 1 without a self-email so >> did that. > > Save the message into StrongED (or maybe Zap), change the > "0" into "1" and double-click the line. Bob's your uncle. Saving into Zap required saving as HTML from Zap. Zap didn't put the URL after the http:// so had to move it. Simpler than the email route. Thanks for the tip. Re the original VMH thread: clicking "Reply" here replies only to the sender you're reading; "Reply all" replies to sender plus list and causes "held for moderation" as Vince M Hudd noted. So you enter the list address by hand, which, if I understand J McC, snaps the thread. Yer carnt win. Bob From atdotcodotuk at dotcodotukat.co.uk Thu Jul 26 12:58:07 2018 From: atdotcodotuk at dotcodotukat.co.uk (Vince Hudd) Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2018 12:58:07 +0100 (BST) Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients In-Reply-To: <49511.91.85.218.30.1532602043.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> References: <49511.91.85.218.30.1532602043.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> Message-ID: <356715746.181632.1532606287339@email.1and1.co.uk> On 26 July 2018 at 11:47 Bob Ardler via Virtualacorn-list wrote: > Re the original VMH thread: clicking "Reply" here replies > only to the sender you're reading; "Reply all" replies to > sender plus list and causes "held for moderation" as Vince > M Hudd noted. So you enter the list address by hand, which, > if I understand J McC, snaps the thread. Yer carnt win. What this shows is that webmail - whether that's in general, or the specific implementation you are using - is somewhat lacking as a day to day email service. This is why a proper email client such as Pluto is a far better way to read email. Out of interest, I've just logged into the webmail service provided by my host to see how it handles list posts, and it showed a similar limitation you describe - though not quite the same. Ultimately, though, it boiled down to the same result of a reply either being sent directly to you, or to both you and the list (the Reply-all). But there is a quick fix in my case which may or may not also work for you/your webmail service: Hit reply-all, then delete the personal recipient from the To field, leaving only the list as a recipient. Indeed, this reply is being composed via my webmail service having done exactly that. From ardler at argonet.co.uk Thu Jul 26 13:34:17 2018 From: ardler at argonet.co.uk (Bob Ardler) Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2018 13:34:17 +0100 (BST) Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients In-Reply-To: <356715746.181632.1532606287339@email.1and1.co.uk> References: <49511.91.85.218.30.1532602043.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <356715746.181632.1532606287339@email.1and1.co.uk> Message-ID: <49746.91.85.218.30.1532608457.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> Vince M Hudd wrote: re: >> Re the original VMH thread: clicking "Reply" here replies >> only to the sender you're reading; "Reply all" replies to >> sender plus list and causes "held for moderation" as Vince >> M Hudd noted. So you enter the list address by hand, which, >> if I understand J McC, snaps the thread. Yer carnt win. > What this shows is that webmail - whether that's in general, or the > specific implementation you are using - is somewhat lacking as a day to > day email service. This is why a proper email client such as Pluto is a > far better way to read email. > > Out of interest, I've just logged into the webmail service provided > by my host to see how it handles list posts, and it showed a similar > limitation you describe - though not quite the same. Ultimately, > though, it boiled down to the same result of a reply either being > sent directly to you, or to both you and the list (the Reply-all). > > But there is a quick fix in my case which may or may not also work for > you/your webmail service: Hit reply-all, then delete the personal > recipient from the To field, leaving only the list as a recipient. > > Indeed, this reply is being composed via my webmail service having done > exactly that. That's weird: a blank "To:" and a "Cc:" to oneself via VAlist etc. Am trying it here. Even if it works, it doesn't explain why "Reply:" has worked in the past, with no "Multiple recipients" message. Well, it didn't -- ERROR: You have not filled in the "To" field. Moved the Cc addr into To:, trying again. From atdotcodotuk at dotcodotukat.co.uk Thu Jul 26 14:17:55 2018 From: atdotcodotuk at dotcodotukat.co.uk (Vince M Hudd) Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2018 14:17:55 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients In-Reply-To: <49746.91.85.218.30.1532608457.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> References: <49511.91.85.218.30.1532602043.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <356715746.181632.1532606287339@email.1and1.co.uk> <49746.91.85.218.30.1532608457.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> Message-ID: <90b7e045-eab8-a98c-bdb9-1d023b9bc878@dotcodotukat.co.uk> On 26/07/2018 13:34, Bob Ardler via Virtualacorn-list wrote: [My suggested work-around for replying just to the list via webmail - which works on my host's webmail, but might not elsewhere] > Even if it works, it doesn't explain why "Reply:" > has worked in the past, with no "Multiple recipients" message. If you've raised that point before, I haven't answered it because I haven't noticed it - sorry. I suspect the change occurred when I altered the list settings to cope with DMARC, a system designed to prevent email spoofing. There's a good chance that it worked for you up until that point - and as a result of that *necessary* change, it now doesn't. -- Vince M Hudd Soft Rock Software - www.softrock.co.uk RISCOSitory - www.riscository.com From ardler at argonet.co.uk Fri Jul 27 09:29:18 2018 From: ardler at argonet.co.uk (Bob Ardler) Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2018 09:29:18 +0100 (BST) Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients In-Reply-To: <90b7e045-eab8-a98c-bdb9-1d023b9bc878@dotcodotukat.co.uk> References: <49511.91.85.218.30.1532602043.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <356715746.181632.1532606287339@email.1and1.co.uk> <49746.91.85.218.30.1532608457.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <90b7e045-eab8-a98c-bdb9-1d023b9bc878@dotcodotukat.co.uk> Message-ID: <49307.91.85.218.30.1532680158.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> Vince M Hudd wrote: Re: >> why "Reply:" >> has worked in the past, with no "Multiple recipients" message. > [snip] > > I suspect the change occurred when I altered the list settings to cope > with DMARC, a system designed to prevent email spoofing. There's a good > chance that it worked for you up until that point - and as a result of > that *necessary* change, it now doesn't. Ah, am slow & getting slower: hadn't connected the items: > Vince M Hudd > Soft Rock Software - www.softrock.co.uk > RISCOSitory - www.riscository.com > Hosted by RISCOSitory/Soft Rock Software > http://www.riscository.com/mailing-lists/ So the complexity of modern programming replaces the old American aintbrokedontfixit epigram with "fix-this-bust-that, cant-be-helped, thats-the-world-today". No, am definitely not complaining. Shall stick to webmail and replutonate only should non-list email require it. Thanks, Vince, for the explanation. From dave at triffid.co.uk Fri Jul 27 11:31:43 2018 From: dave at triffid.co.uk (Dave Symes) Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2018 11:31:43 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients In-Reply-To: <49307.91.85.218.30.1532680158.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> References: <49511.91.85.218.30.1532602043.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <356715746.181632.1532606287339@email.1and1.co.uk> <49746.91.85.218.30.1532608457.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <90b7e045-eab8-a98c-bdb9-1d023b9bc878@dotcodotukat.co.uk> <49307.91.85.218.30.1532680158.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> Message-ID: <571e20f213dave@triffid.co.uk> In article <49307.91.85.218.30.1532680158.squirrel at email.orpheusnet.co.uk>, Bob Ardler via Virtualacorn-list wrote: [Snippy] > No, am definitely not complaining. Shall stick to webmail > and replutonate only should non-list email require it. > Thanks, Vince, for the explanation. Obviously a given, each to their own preferences... But... I have found this thread to be somewhat interesting and a bit weird... Yes as has been noted WebMail has its uses, and even I use it now and again, but to use Webmail as the primary device for internet mail seems very masochistic... particularly when there are excellent and even adequate Mail client apps with far far better facilities than ever found in a WebMail thing... Pluto, MessengerPro, Thunderbird to name just a few. If I scratch my head... anymore, I'll cover my keyboard in dandruff. ;-) Dave -- Dave Triffid From atdotcodotuk at dotcodotukat.co.uk Fri Jul 27 10:29:37 2018 From: atdotcodotuk at dotcodotukat.co.uk (Vince M Hudd) Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2018 10:29:37 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients In-Reply-To: <49307.91.85.218.30.1532680158.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> References: <49511.91.85.218.30.1532602043.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <356715746.181632.1532606287339@email.1and1.co.uk> <49746.91.85.218.30.1532608457.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <90b7e045-eab8-a98c-bdb9-1d023b9bc878@dotcodotukat.co.uk> <49307.91.85.218.30.1532680158.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> Message-ID: <50e14c71-acaa-177f-4bee-4ccc0ee0595a@dotcodotukat.co.uk> On 27/07/18 09:29, Bob Ardler via Virtualacorn-list wrote: > Vince M Hudd wrote: [On why what used to work for Bob now doesn't - caused by the changes for DMARC] > So the complexity of modern programming replaces the old > American aintbrokedontfixit epigram with "fix-this-bust-that, > cant-be-helped, thats-the-world-today". Except in this case (and countless other mailing lists) it wasn't a simple as that. Things *were* broken, and needed to be fixed. The way email works was flawed: it left open a gaping wide hole that spammers and fraudsters could easily exploit. Steps are being taken to deal with that, such as DMARC. That in turn meant this list and all those others had to be changed, unless they wanted to be broken by DMARC. If this causes problems for you, it's because you are using a system for email that has functional limitations. Historically, webmail was designed simply as a web-based means to access a normal mailbox using IMAP - but being web-based it's exactly like just about every other web-based alternative to a proper desktop application: greatly limited by comparison, both in speed and in features. If you wish to continue using webmail, that's entirely up to you - but when it doesn't work or doesn't do what you expect, remember that it's *your choice* to use something that just isn't up to the job. -- Vince M Hudd - Soft Rock Software - www.softrock.co.uk RISCOSitory - www.riscository.com From steffen at huber-net.de Fri Jul 27 22:21:48 2018 From: steffen at huber-net.de (Steffen Huber) Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2018 23:21:48 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients In-Reply-To: <571e20f213dave@triffid.co.uk> References: <49511.91.85.218.30.1532602043.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <356715746.181632.1532606287339@email.1and1.co.uk> <49746.91.85.218.30.1532608457.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <90b7e045-eab8-a98c-bdb9-1d023b9bc878@dotcodotukat.co.uk> <49307.91.85.218.30.1532680158.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <571e20f213dave@triffid.co.uk> Message-ID: <330061398.68209.1532726509030@communicator.strato.de> > Dave Symes via Virtualacorn-list wrote: > > Yes as has been noted WebMail has its uses, and even I use it now and > again, but to use Webmail as the primary device for internet mail seems > very masochistic... particularly when there are excellent and even > adequate Mail client apps with far far better facilities than ever found > in a WebMail thing... > Pluto, MessengerPro, Thunderbird to name just a few. I fear that, for modern WebMail systems, it turns out the WebMail is at least as powerful as Pluto and MessengerPro. And IIRC, Pluto is still tied to POP3 which is a nightmare if used from more than one device. At least my WebMail application is able to properly support the various character encodings, something MessengerPro still refuses to do. Oh, and it can be accessed with strong encryption. Steffen -- Steffen Huber LambdaComm System ? Welcome to Trollinger Country steffen at huber-net.de Private homepage http://www.huber-net.de/ RISC OS Blog http://riscosblog.huber-net.de/ From Stuartlists at orpheusinternet.co.uk Fri Jul 27 23:21:43 2018 From: Stuartlists at orpheusinternet.co.uk (lists) Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2018 23:21:43 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients In-Reply-To: <330061398.68209.1532726509030@communicator.strato.de> References: <49511.91.85.218.30.1532602043.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <356715746.181632.1532606287339@email.1and1.co.uk> <49746.91.85.218.30.1532608457.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <90b7e045-eab8-a98c-bdb9-1d023b9bc878@dotcodotukat.co.uk> <49307.91.85.218.30.1532680158.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <571e20f213dave@triffid.co.uk> <330061398.68209.1532726509030@communicator.strato.de> Message-ID: <571e61f28aStuartlists@orpheusinternet.co.uk> In article <330061398.68209.1532726509030 at communicator.strato.de>, Steffen Huber via Virtualacorn-list wrote: > I fear that, for modern WebMail systems, it turns out the WebMail is > at least as powerful as Pluto and MessengerPro. And IIRC, Pluto is > still tied to POP3 which is a nightmare if used from more than one > device. !Pluto is a reading/sending application and is tied only to whatever application is used to actually fetch mail from a server, or despatch to a server. In my case I use !POPstar which, whilst a POP3 client, can be configured to leave mail on the server after a fetch if required. -- Stuart Winsor Tools With A Mission sending tools across the world http://www.twam.co.uk/ From cvjazz at waitrose.com Sat Jul 28 00:20:00 2018 From: cvjazz at waitrose.com (Chris Newman) Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2018 00:20:00 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients In-Reply-To: <571e61f28aStuartlists@orpheusinternet.co.uk> References: <49511.91.85.218.30.1532602043.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <356715746.181632.1532606287339@email.1and1.co.uk> <49746.91.85.218.30.1532608457.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <90b7e045-eab8-a98c-bdb9-1d023b9bc878@dotcodotukat.co.uk> <49307.91.85.218.30.1532680158.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <571e20f213dave@triffid.co.uk> <330061398.68209.1532726509030@communicator.strato.de> <571e61f28aStuartlists@orpheusinternet.co.uk> Message-ID: <571e6748d1cvjazz@waitrose.com> In article <571e61f28aStuartlists at orpheusinternet.co.uk>, lists via Virtualacorn-list wrote: > In article <330061398.68209.1532726509030 at communicator.strato.de>, > Steffen Huber via Virtualacorn-list > wrote: > > I fear that, for modern WebMail systems, it turns out the WebMail is > > at least as powerful as Pluto and MessengerPro. And IIRC, Pluto is > > still tied to POP3 which is a nightmare if used from more than one > > device. > !Pluto is a reading/sending application and is tied only to whatever > application is used to actually fetch mail from a server, or despatch to a > server. In my case I use !POPstar which, whilst a POP3 client, can be > configured to leave mail on the server after a fetch if required. Ditto with Netfetch/Hermes -- Chris From steffen at huber-net.de Sat Jul 28 01:50:09 2018 From: steffen at huber-net.de (Steffen Huber) Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2018 02:50:09 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients In-Reply-To: <571e61f28aStuartlists@orpheusinternet.co.uk> References: <49511.91.85.218.30.1532602043.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <356715746.181632.1532606287339@email.1and1.co.uk> <49746.91.85.218.30.1532608457.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <90b7e045-eab8-a98c-bdb9-1d023b9bc878@dotcodotukat.co.uk> <49307.91.85.218.30.1532680158.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <571e20f213dave@triffid.co.uk> <330061398.68209.1532726509030@communicator.strato.de> <571e61f28aStuartlists@orpheusinternet.co.uk> Message-ID: <900409356.68849.1532739009812@communicator.strato.de> > lists via Virtualacorn-list wrote: > > > In article <330061398.68209.1532726509030 at communicator.strato.de>, > Steffen Huber via Virtualacorn-list > wrote: > > I fear that, for modern WebMail systems, it turns out the WebMail is > > at least as powerful as Pluto and MessengerPro. And IIRC, Pluto is > > still tied to POP3 which is a nightmare if used from more than one > > device. > > !Pluto is a reading/sending application and is tied only to whatever > application is used to actually fetch mail from a server, or despatch to a > server. In my case I use !POPstar which, whilst a POP3 client, can be > configured to leave mail on the server after a fetch if required. "Leaving mail on the server" is just not enough. I need to sort mail into folders. I need to have the same read/unread state across all devices. If I delete a mail on one device, it should be also deleted on the server. In short: I need IMAP. Technically, in Pluto's current state of handling fetching/sending from/to the server, it is impossible to properly support IMAP. I guess it is unlikely that someone will implement it in the near future. I used Messenger Pro for quite a while, and mostly liked it (especially its mailing list support and the seamless integration of mail and news). However, it is firmly stuck in the 90s. While - in contrast to Pluto - it supports IMAP, it has reportedly big performance issues when dealing with big mailboxes (mine is over 10 GiB). And it has broken encoding handling (last time I looked). And, IIRC, the server connector still uses the completely outdated SecureSockets module. If NetSurf gains enough JavaScript capabilities, it will immediately become the premier RISC OS email solution. This is really sad considering that both Messenger Pro and Pluto were ahead of the PC competition in the early days. Steffen -- Steffen Huber LambdaComm System ? Welcome to Trollinger Country steffen at huber-net.de Private homepage http://www.huber-net.de/ RISC OS Blog http://riscosblog.huber-net.de/ From jn.ml.vac.83 at wingsandbeaks.org.uk Sat Jul 28 09:40:08 2018 From: jn.ml.vac.83 at wingsandbeaks.org.uk (Jeremy Nicoll - ml VA) Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2018 09:40:08 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients In-Reply-To: <330061398.68209.1532726509030@communicator.strato.de> References: <49511.91.85.218.30.1532602043.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <356715746.181632.1532606287339@email.1and1.co.uk> <49746.91.85.218.30.1532608457.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <90b7e045-eab8-a98c-bdb9-1d023b9bc878@dotcodotukat.co.uk> <49307.91.85.218.30.1532680158.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <571e20f213dave@triffid.co.uk> <330061398.68209.1532726509030@communicator.strato.de> Message-ID: <721bddb15162eace05dac8e051abd052@wingsandbeaks.org.uk> On 2018-07-27 22:21, Steffen Huber via Virtualacorn-list wrote: >> Dave Symes via Virtualacorn-list >> wrote: >> >> Yes as has been noted WebMail has its uses, and even I use it now and >> again, but to use Webmail as the primary device for internet mail >> seems >> very masochistic... particularly when there are excellent and even >> adequate Mail client apps with far far better facilities than ever >> found >> in a WebMail thing... >> Pluto, MessengerPro, Thunderbird to name just a few. > > I fear that, for modern WebMail systems, it turns out the WebMail is > at least as powerful as Pluto and MessengerPro... Yes. I use two WebmMail systems - RoundCube (which is open source and many mail providers use), & fastmail.com's own/proprietary system. The latter looks nice and is very fast (you can easily forget you're using a web-based thing) and its searching and filtering capabilities are just as good as a local client. The things I miss in both of these are: - you can't edit the contents of a received mail (eg to change the subject line to something meaningful, or adjust the threading) - that they don't also handle nntp news. -- Jeremy Nicoll - my opinions are my own From atdotcodotuk at dotcodotukat.co.uk Sat Jul 28 12:04:32 2018 From: atdotcodotuk at dotcodotukat.co.uk (Vince M Hudd) Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2018 12:04:32 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Webmail vs a dedicated email client + POP3 vs IMAP (Was: Multiple recipients) In-Reply-To: <571e61f28aStuartlists@orpheusinternet.co.uk> References: <49511.91.85.218.30.1532602043.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <356715746.181632.1532606287339@email.1and1.co.uk> <49746.91.85.218.30.1532608457.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <90b7e045-eab8-a98c-bdb9-1d023b9bc878@dotcodotukat.co.uk> <49307.91.85.218.30.1532680158.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <571e20f213dave@triffid.co.uk> <330061398.68209.1532726509030@communicator.strato.de> <571e61f28aStuartlists@orpheusinternet.co.uk> Message-ID: <972f14de-7eaa-3ab1-5c98-ef404b697d0a@dotcodotukat.co.uk> On 27/07/18 23:21, lists via Virtualacorn-list wrote: > In article <330061398.68209.1532726509030 at communicator.strato.de>, > Steffen Huber via Virtualacorn-list > wrote: >> I fear that, for modern WebMail systems, it turns out the WebMail is >> at least as powerful as Pluto and MessengerPro. While this is almost certainly true in some cases - particularly where the webmail system is one of the primary products to draw people in to the provider's services, such as Google and Gmail[1]. However, the webmail offerings I've seen provided by ISPs to their customers tend to be somewhat more basic. I believe it is something more along those lines that Bob is using. [1] I have a gmail address which only sees very limited use, and I access it from my desktop using IMAP. I don't see the webby interface, so I don't really know what it's like - but despite my general dislike of Google, their developers are pretty damned good at what they do, so I imagine it's a pretty good system. >> And IIRC, Pluto is still tied to POP3 which is a nightmare if used from more than one >> device. > !Pluto is a reading/sending application and is tied only to whatever > application is used to actually fetch mail from a server, or despatch to a > server. That pretty much ties it to POP3 for receiving emails, as Steffen said. For it to be able to handle IMAP, it would pretty much have to speak directly to the mail server for almost every action it carries out on the contents of the mailbox. > In my case I use !POPstar which, whilst a POP3 client, can be > configured to leave mail on the server after a fetch if required. Before I switched to using IMAP I did similar, but it was always a flawed approach. -- Vince M Hudd - Soft Rock Software - www.softrock.co.uk RISCOSitory - www.riscository.com From druck at druck.org.uk Sun Jul 29 09:31:21 2018 From: druck at druck.org.uk (David J. Ruck) Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2018 09:31:21 +0100 Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients In-Reply-To: <900409356.68849.1532739009812@communicator.strato.de> References: <49511.91.85.218.30.1532602043.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <356715746.181632.1532606287339@email.1and1.co.uk> <49746.91.85.218.30.1532608457.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <90b7e045-eab8-a98c-bdb9-1d023b9bc878@dotcodotukat.co.uk> <49307.91.85.218.30.1532680158.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <571e20f213dave@triffid.co.uk> <330061398.68209.1532726509030@communicator.strato.de> <571e61f28aStuartlists@orpheusinternet.co.uk> <900409356.68849.1532739009812@communicator.strato.de> Message-ID: On 28/07/2018 01:50, Steffen Huber via Virtualacorn-list wrote: > "Leaving mail on the server" is just not enough. I need to sort > mail into folders. I need to have the same read/unread state > across all devices. If I delete a mail on one device, it should be > also deleted on the server. In short: I need IMAP. Technically, > in Pluto's current state of handling fetching/sending from/to the > server, it is impossible to properly support IMAP. I guess it is > unlikely that someone will implement it in the near future. > > I used Messenger Pro for quite a while, and mostly liked it > (especially its mailing list support and the seamless integration > of mail and news). However, it is firmly stuck in the 90s. > While - in contrast to Pluto - it supports IMAP, it has reportedly > big performance issues when dealing with big mailboxes (mine is > over 10 GiB). And it has broken encoding handling (last time > I looked). And, IIRC, the server connector still uses the > completely outdated SecureSockets module. The obvious solution would be to set up a Linux Raspberry Pi as a local mail server, which downloads email from your ISP and shares it via IMAP to all clients. As it's local SecureSockets isn't needed from RISC OS, but a VPN can be set up to allow external secure access from your mobile devices. As this is a VA list, there may be a PC IMAP sever which could do the same, but I haven't looked. > If NetSurf gains enough JavaScript capabilities, it will > immediately become the premier RISC OS email solution. This > is really sad considering that both Messenger Pro and > Pluto were ahead of the PC competition in the early days. I've still not come across any webmail service which is a patch on a dedicated email program. Cheers ---David -- Email: druck at druck.org.uk Phone: +44-(0)7974 108301 From steffen at huber-net.de Tue Jul 31 15:49:44 2018 From: steffen at huber-net.de (Steffen Huber) Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2018 16:49:44 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [Virtualacorn-list] Multiple recipients In-Reply-To: References: <49511.91.85.218.30.1532602043.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <356715746.181632.1532606287339@email.1and1.co.uk> <49746.91.85.218.30.1532608457.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <90b7e045-eab8-a98c-bdb9-1d023b9bc878@dotcodotukat.co.uk> <49307.91.85.218.30.1532680158.squirrel@email.orpheusnet.co.uk> <571e20f213dave@triffid.co.uk> <330061398.68209.1532726509030@communicator.strato.de> <571e61f28aStuartlists@orpheusinternet.co.uk> <900409356.68849.1532739009812@communicator.strato.de> Message-ID: <1840513606.181910.1533048584132@communicator.strato.de> > "David J. Ruck via Virtualacorn-list" wrote [snip] > The obvious solution would be to set up a Linux Raspberry Pi as a local > mail server, which downloads email from your ISP and shares it via IMAP > to all clients. As it's local SecureSockets isn't needed from RISC OS, > but a VPN can be set up to allow external secure access from your mobile > devices. > > As this is a VA list, there may be a PC IMAP sever which could do the > same, but I haven't looked. Unfortunately, this "obvious solution" only solves - despite the significant install and management overhead it creates - one single problem: Messenger Pro's insecureness. It does not magically allow Pluto to sensibly communicate with IMAP, and it does not solve the slowness of Messenger Pro handling large IMAP mailboxes, and it does not solve Messenger Pro's broken encoding handling. There are a few Qt-based open source email clients, maybe it would be worth improving the Qt port to make those really usable. Or maybe add secure IMAP and SMTP to TapirMail. > > If NetSurf gains enough JavaScript capabilities, it will > > immediately become the premier RISC OS email solution. This > > is really sad considering that both Messenger Pro and > > Pluto were ahead of the PC competition in the early days. > > I've still not come across any webmail service which is a patch on a > dedicated email program. What "dedicated email program" do you (or anyone reading this!) favour? I am in a seemingly constant search for something sensible. Things I tried include Messenger Pro (Windows), Opera Mail, Foxmail, Mailbird, eM Client, Pegasus Mail, Claws, Thunderbird and Columba. Claws is my favourite, but still far from ideal. Oh, and if you know a good client for Android... Steffen -- Steffen Huber LambdaComm System ? Welcome to Trollinger Country steffen at huber-net.de Private homepage http://www.huber-net.de/ RISC OS Blog http://riscosblog.huber-net.de/